O/8 hand UTG -- playable?

[PseudoPserious]

Hi all,

I'm fairly new to Omaha/8. This past Sunday I played some 4/8 with a half-kill. I played for 2.5 hours and only saw 4 flops outside of my blinds, and only went to the river with one of them. I'm concerned that I was playing a little too tight.

Here's the hand that (in my opinion) was the strongest of the hands that I folded:

The game is nine-handed. It is not a kill pot. About 1/3 of the hands are raised pre-flop. It's usually 6-8 seeing the flop whether it's raised or not. Some surprising hands are shown down at the end.

I'm UTG with Ah 3h 5s 7c. I fold.

Is this hand (in general) playable?

I had a tell on the guy next to me that he was going to raise (which he did). If I know that the hand is going to be raised, is the hand still playable?

I would have been happy to play this hand in mid/late position in an unraised pot. Is it strong enough to play earlier or after a raise?

It was a frustrating 2.5 hours, but this was the only hand that I double-guessed myself on. I'm going to review my O/8 books to make sure I'm not screwed in a little too tight.

Thanks,
PP

P.S. For what it's worth, I wouldn't have flopped anything...not that it matters. But this isn't a "oh my god, I would have scooped a $300 pot" post.

[Terry]

The game at which I have had the greatest sustained earn in big bets per hour was the $10/$20 O/8 at the Mirage. There were always a couple of very good players in the game, but there were also sufficient tourists to ensure that simply playing tight (nut draws or the nuts [with redraws if one of the good players was in]), trying the occasional “maneuver” only in short-handed pots against the better players, would do the job.

How tight? One night, having spotted one my favorite opponents in the other game, I requested a table change. Shortly after I got to the new table the dealer from my original table pushed in. I picked up two good hands. She looked at me and said “Wow. Two in a row? You didn’t play a single hand at the other table.”

Now, I didn’t want to go ballistic in front of the live one, but I’ll tell you, I was so hot I thought my hair was going to catch fire, and I most certainly did get very loud (after the hand and away from the table) when I went to the floorman. Understand that even though she “said” those words to me, she was actually “talking to” an acquaintance / boyfriend of hers at the table, know what I mean?

Tight is right in this game, and an hour (or two) without a hand is not at all unusual. As for your specific hand, I would never play it in early position, just because someone might raise. If I had good reason to think there will be a raise, I’m not playing it in any position. A3 needs a deuce on the flop, and one of those deuces is too likely to be in the hand of the raiser. I want to see for cheap if my deuce flops or I don’t want to play.

Sure, in a loose aggressive game the “every hand” types push a lot of huge pots back and forth... that’s the nature of the game. Your play is to keep smiling at them, congratulating them on their fine play, and waiting for your turn to scoop one (on a good night two) of those monster pots.

If I can play for six hours, pick up the low half with my A2 a couple of times to pay my blinds, and scoop one 12 to 15 big bet pot, I’m going home happy. That’s the way I play the game.

[PseudoPserious]

Thanks for your reply, Terry. I have two more O/8 questions that I hope you'll respond to as well.

PP

[ironman007]

I have to disagree with this. In a low stakes game with 6 to 8 players seeing the flop it as a mistake to fold this hand, you are playing to tight. You have a suited A 3 with a 5 for backup. The 5 in the hand makes this hand playable, without the 5, I fold. Yes, you want the 2 to flop and ideally the 4 as well. In many 4-8 games a raise doesn't mean that much. With 8 players in the hand, postition goes down in Omaha 8b. I agree with tight playing in omaha 8b but to play this tight at the low stakes is leaving money on the table. Even at 10-20, I would call this hand since these games are not that tight either.

[Terry]

I’m not saying that my way is “the” way to play this game -- just that it has served me well in games ranging from extremely wild aggressive $3/$6 home games in which $300 pots were not at all uncommon to the Mirage $10/$20, which is probably about the toughest game you’re likely to find at that level.

In those very loose aggressive 8 players to every showdown low limit games, where it seems that the 3 bettor on the flop of 458 is just about as likely to raising with 99J2 (“I had an overpair”) or 842Q (“I was afraid of the straight draw”) as he is to be raising with A2, I’m simply unwilling to put in five or ten more bets to find out whether my A3 is any good, even though it just might show a profit against that sort of competition.

What I think is likely the biggest problem with A3 type hands for a person trying to play well in wild games is that he will too often feel forced to fold to the excessive action after the pot gets big, and a lot of those folds will turn out to be wrong.

Flopping the flush draw and getting tied on for several more bets in hopes of winning half the pot is not where I want to be, particularly since I will so often miss the flush and be faced with the prospect of calling two or three bets cold with the second best low on the river. For my taste, the increase in profit is just way too small for the huge increase in variance. If you see me putting in multiple bets on all streets in a loose game, you won’t have much difficulty reading my hand; I either already have the nuts one way (probably with counterfeit protection and or redraws) or I’m drawing (with 12 or more outs) for a scoop.

But that’s just me. I’m a grinder. I’ll gladly settle for 5% less earn if I can cut my variance in half. I certainly wouldn’t say that it’s wrong to go after that additional edge, just that it isn’t necessary to do so to have a nice win rate at Omaha 8.

[Ray Zee]

sounds like you are getting a good grasp on the game. dont pay any attention to those that dont understand position.

[chaos]

I would fold knowing that the pot will be raised. You are out of position. Wait for a better spot.

It is not uncommon to rarely play a hand in this game. A nice scooped pot makes up for a lot of posted blinds.