Requested Post - 88

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Congrats to MP2 for almost pulling off the check/raise/cap on every street. He still checkraised every street which is pretty awesome.

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His c/r on the river ranks as one of the worst plays I've seen.

[Entity]

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Congrats to MP2 for almost pulling off the check/raise/cap on every street. He still checkraised every street which is pretty awesome.

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His c/r on the river ranks as one of the worst plays I've seen.

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Exaggerate much?

I don't like your LRR much either. It's got some value but the value is diminshed somewhat by tying yourself to the pot. It's not like you really need to tie other people to the pot too much in a game of this texture either. Overall I'd say his river play is better than your preflop play.

Rob

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Overall I'd say his river play is better than your preflop play.

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Wow...

That just sounds ridiculous to me. I mean...I guess here are my thoughts and we'll go from here.

My PF play is fairly simply. Huge family pot. I catch an 8 or I don't. Easy to play.

His river play. He's will to let his set check through? His will to face a 3 bet now with the 3rd nuts?

I don't see what you're saying at all....or is it your turn to exagerate [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

correct away

[Entity]

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Overall I'd say his river play is better than your preflop play.

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Wow...

That just sounds ridiculous to me. I mean...I guess here are my thoughts and we'll go from here.

My PF play is fairly simply. Huge family pot. I catch an 8 or I don't. Easy to play.

His river play. He's will to let his set check through? His will to face a 3 bet now with the 3rd nuts?

I don't see what you're saying at all....or is it your turn to exagerate [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

correct away

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With regards to preflop, once you LRR, you're not just playing for flop value. In addition, 88 isn't a "no set no bet" hand and you're probably significantly undervaluing it if you think that it is. You've got some room for flexibility with how you play 88 postflop but in a larger pot, a lot of that room for flexibility goes away, since no one is folding gutshots, overs, etc. So you change the way the hand plays out postflop unless you flop a set. In addition, you've put yourself in a position where you're seeing the turn at the least a good portion of the time, especially when there are a lot of flops where you "might" be good but you're not sure, but that "not sure" is subsidized by the pot you bloated.

With regards to his river play, can you name any hand that you 3-bet the turn with and call his cap that you don't value bet on the river? I think a bet-3bet is ideal given his hand, but going for a bet-3bet is a bit too hopeful since you will bet a lot more hands than you raise on that river, especially given the fact that he can occasionally trap the straggler for one more bet on the river than if he attempted a bet-3bet.

Rob

[Forbillz]

I don't particularly care for the LRR with 3 callers between you and BB. I do not consider 88 a hand that is guaranteed a fold if you don't hit, and with 3 callers between BB and your 3-bet, you're (almost) guaranteed tha tthe pot is a minimum of a 5-way pot. I'd prefer the move if you were either UTG or UTG+1, as you have at least a "chance" of narrowing the field enough to allow 88 to have a snowball's chance of making itself best hand UI.

[QTip]

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Overall I'd say his river play is better than your preflop play.

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Wow...

That just sounds ridiculous to me. I mean...I guess here are my thoughts and we'll go from here.

My PF play is fairly simply. Huge family pot. I catch an 8 or I don't. Easy to play.

His river play. He's will to let his set check through? His will to face a 3 bet now with the 3rd nuts?

I don't see what you're saying at all....or is it your turn to exagerate [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

correct away

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With regards to preflop, once you LRR, you're not just playing for flop value. In addition, 88 isn't a "no set no bet" hand and you're probably significantly undervaluing it if you think that it is. You've got some room for flexibility with how you play 88 postflop but in a larger pot, a lot of that room for flexibility goes away, since no one is folding gutshots, overs, etc. So you change the way the hand plays out postflop unless you flop a set. In addition, you've put yourself in a position where you're seeing the turn at the least a good portion of the time, especially when there are a lot of flops where you "might" be good but you're not sure, but that "not sure" is subsidized by the pot you bloated.

With regards to his river play, can you name any hand that you 3-bet the turn with and call his cap that you don't value bet on the river? I think a bet-3bet is ideal given his hand, but going for a bet-3bet is a bit too hopeful since you will bet a lot more hands than you raise on that river, especially given the fact that he can occasionally trap the straggler for one more bet on the river than if he attempted a bet-3bet.

Rob

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Excellent explanation. I just spoke with a friend who had the same thoughts.

I'm fighting a 300 bb downswing right now, and I don't think I have my head screwed on straight.

[El Ishmael]

Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

[thejameser]

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Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

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i think he's saying 88 has showdown value and is not just a speculative hand as OP seems to have considered it. thus it is not improved by the bloated pot as it is susceptible to overs, etc. and you do not want to give opponents proper odds to draw to their hands. at least thats how i took it. and i agree.

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Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

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i think he's saying 88 has showdown value and is not just a speculative hand as OP seems to have considered it. thus it is not improved by the bloated pot as it is susceptible to overs, etc. and you do not want to give opponents proper odds to draw to their hands. at least thats how i took it. and i agree.

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I think that's why El Ishmael is saying perhaps the play is better with 44 than it is with 88..even though it still might not be right.

Also, I do feel that the raw showdown value of 88 in a 7 way pot is not that high...perhaps I'm wrong in this thinking.

[Forbillz]

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Entity, are you insinuating that the preflop play would be better with a hand like 44 (though maybe still not optimal)?

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i think he's saying 88 has showdown value and is not just a speculative hand as OP seems to have considered it. thus it is not improved by the bloated pot as it is susceptible to overs, etc. and you do not want to give opponents proper odds to draw to their hands. at least thats how i took it. and i agree.

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I think that's why El Ishmael is saying perhaps the play is better with 44 than it is with 88..even though it still might not be right.

Also, I do feel that the raw showdown value of 88 in a 7 way pot is not that high...perhaps I'm wrong in this thinking.

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It's not that great. That's why I mentioned I felt your play w/ 88 was better from UTG or UTG+1, b/c you at least have a chance of only continuing in a 3-4 way pot.