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#21
11-10-2005, 02:57 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
How could Barch ever assume that he would be in a coinflip? He's only in a coinflip with AQ and AK and KQ [/ QUOTE ] FYP [ QUOTE ] which is there simply no way Black holds either of these hands given the raise, call, call action. [/ QUOTE ] Oh really? Why can't he call behind with KQs? [ QUOTE ] I'm just not buying the argument that this was anything other than a poorly chosen moment for aggression. [/ QUOTE ] How many MTT final tables do you have? Much less at an event where buy-in is $1K+? [ QUOTE ] NL is all about picking your spots, and Black didn't here. If you're going to represent strength, have to represent it from start to finish. Black himself says that he's either "raising or folding ," essentially announcing that his range is way lower than QQ-AA, AQ, AK. [/ QUOTE ] You are a level one thinker. Although I do agree that Black shouldn't have said anything and made it A LITTLE easier for Barch to call [ QUOTE ] From Barch's perspective, once the logic has been deduced, a call is in order here. From Black's perspective, Barch could have had 88-TT, but you have to wonder the likelihood of Barch re-raising with that range given the action. QQ+ is more likely, IMO, and Black should have deduced this. [/ QUOTE ] Again, you show your MTT inexperience. If you have 99/TT/AQs/AKo/AKs here with 4.5 Million in chips, I think you have to raise it up and if you get everyone out, you now increased your stack by more than 20%. Even if you call Black with AKs, you're a 3 to 1 favorite to win, but if you lose, you lose $400,000. And remember, the difference between 9th and 6th is/was $500,000 if I recall correctly. [ QUOTE ] If you watch the telecast, you'll notice Black looks incredibly sheepish once the cards are turned and the chips are pushed over to Barch. He realized he made a bad read and picked a bad spot. It was a bad play. [/ QUOTE ] Black looked sheepish because he had to turn the cards over. I bet you he would show no emotion if he could muck his loser without turning the cards over. 
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#22
11-10-2005, 04:13 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
Barch made a great read that he wasn't a coin flip and called with his jacks. [/ QUOTE ] Why is this a great read? You're saying that it's an ok play for the chip leader to CC in that situation with AK/AQ/ and KQ? I think most would agree that's a bad play with AK/AQ and and iffy play with KQ. Hence, I'm sure Barch thought he was better than a coin flip to everything except KQ.
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#23
11-10-2005, 04:17 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Barch made a great read that he wasn't a coin flip and called with his jacks. [/ QUOTE ] Why is this a great read? You're saying that it's an ok play for the chip leader to CC in that situation with AK/AQ/ and KQ? I think most would agree that's a bad play with AK/AQ and and iffy play with KQ. Hence, I'm sure Barch thought he was better than a coin flip to everything except KQ. [/ QUOTE ] You're a donkey if you re-raise 2 people with KQo/s. Calling behind ON THE BUTTON is the only play I can think of that's +EV. Also, you need to remember that you're going to lose 1 out of 3 times if Black has only one overcard to your jacks and 1 out of 4 times if he holds a smaller pair (like 88). I think what you people are not getting is that the difference between 10th and 9th is 400,000$. That's a lot of money considering the difference between 6th and 9th is $500,000.
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#24
11-10-2005, 05:14 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Barch made a great read that he wasn't a coin flip and called with his jacks. [/ QUOTE ] Why is this a great read? You're saying that it's an ok play for the chip leader to CC in that situation with AK/AQ/ and KQ? I think most would agree that's a bad play with AK/AQ and and iffy play with KQ. Hence, I'm sure Barch thought he was better than a coin flip to everything except KQ. [/ QUOTE ] You're a donkey if you re-raise 2 people with KQo/s. Calling behind ON THE BUTTON is the only play I can think of that's +EV. Also, you need to remember that you're going to lose 1 out of 3 times if Black has only one overcard to your jacks and 1 out of 4 times if he holds a smaller pair (like 88). I think what you people are not getting is that the difference between 10th and 9th is 400,000$. That's a lot of money considering the difference between 6th and 9th is $500,000. [/ QUOTE ] 1. Ok if you think cc'ing is correct then what if a King or Queen flops and one of your opponents bets big? 2. And the point is at least one person (you) would cc with KQ so it's possible Black has that. But what you seem to be forgetting is that not everybody plays to finish in 9th place. First place is 7.5m and Barch has JJ and chip leader either has KQ or Barch is likely to double up and become chip leader. And you think he has tough call with JJ? Show me that the EV of Barch calling is a close call.......given the tourney payout and a weighted hand range for Black.
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#25
11-10-2005, 05:23 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
if barch folds JJ everyone would be saying it was a great play but because barch calls its a donkey play. [/ QUOTE ] It's true. Almost every "amazing play" and "donkey play/donkey raise" and such is viewed the opposite way when the opponent does the opposite. Too many people are results oriented.
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#27
11-12-2005, 06:35 AM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
smoothing calling a raiser and a caller... and then re-raising a lp re-raiser all-in...wow, that's almost as terrible as my writing ability...
black=donk
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#28
11-12-2005, 07:39 AM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
Ok...first off let me say that this I think this was a bad play by Black, who seemed to get carried away with the whole "big-stack bubble bullying" (which should from here on be known as BBB...there needs to be more abbreviations in poker) in this hand.
However it seems that some of you are lambasting this play partially because of what he said...just because you could see his cards and see that it was the truth. Quick insight...poker players are known to lie on occassion in order to mislead opponents about the strength of their hand. Once again...I agree that this was a donk play. As was the play against Ivey, unless he had some incredible read on Phil, which I find hard to imagine, though not impossible. Enough commas for ya?
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#29
11-12-2005, 02:13 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
>>Too many people are results oriented.<<
Agreed. I didn't like Black's play here because of his line. But, it does take stones to make that kind of play on the bubble of the WSOP (both the raise and the call, actually).
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#30
11-12-2005, 02:27 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
a) going 4 bets all-in with Phil Ivey w/ A2s, ...Sure, it looks great to bluff Phil Ivey out of a pot on TV (although Phil actually had the worse hand, but there's no way Black knew that), but jeeeezus that was an awful awful play -- the only thing he did right in that hand was show the A2s, which might have done something for his meta-game [/ QUOTE ] It was a great play...Ivey was playing way too fast and loose and Black caught him speeding. Not sure why he showed his hand.
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