I've Never Felt So Sexy...

W. Deranged · #1 11-25-2005, 12:43 AM

One could argue this is low content, but I found this very amusing while it was happening...

"Unknown" is just that... having just sat down at the table.

"Nut" is just that: 61/26/2.3. Loose and aggressive.

I'm open to discussion of every street, though the obvious point of the post is the river move...

Party Poker Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Deranged is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Deranged calls, Unknown raises, 2 folds, Nut calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Deranged calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Deranged checks, Unknown bets, Nut calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Deranged calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Deranged checks, Unknown bets, Nut calls, UTG folds, Deranged calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Deranged checks, Unknown checks, Nut bets, Deranged raises...

#2 11-25-2005, 01:08 AM

nice move, did it work out?

#3 11-25-2005, 01:29 AM

I am guessing you are putting unknown on either missed AJ/AT/JJ/TT and maybe AQ? (Since no read, I guess I'd throw in ATs QTs and 99 maybe too)
Given read and action of the nut, a busted flush draw bluff, or any piece of the board. Definitely not a king as he probably would have given action earlier if he had a king given his aggression.

Unknown will have a hard time calling two cold and not even closing the action on the river with the 'marginal' holdings that he checks the river with. And even if his hand beats yours, he is probably laying it down anyways. Knocks out the possible best hand and puts you against any two cards.

I like this play a lot, took it for a swing today, felt good about the 'move' itself even though I ended up losing that hand (passive donk CC 2 bets with rivered two pair and initial donk better folded)

Anyways, hoping that unknown folds, and nut calls with Q7o and its shipped your way.

damaniac · #4 11-25-2005, 01:37 AM

The river looks good, but simply for a value point of view. Other than AQ, I don't think there's a hand Unknown will fold for 2 but call for 1 after checking the river that beats you (which is an odd thing to say about someone called Unknown but oh well). OTOH, he probably doesn't have a K or similar monster or he would have bet, so the real question is whether you are ahead of the nut and whether you make more going for an overcall from Unknown.

Nut is probably betting lots of hands, many of which you beat, and I feel a player of this description is waking up earlier with a K or monster earlier. Likewise, I don't see unknown overcalling with JJ here very often or something similar, so not really missing any bets. Seems like the best way to get the most money into the pot with the best hand.

What are you doing if nut 3-bets? Call, right? Or is he not so nutty that you can fold 2nd pair to a 3-bet ?

Bill C · #5 11-25-2005, 11:20 AM

Hi, WD,

Nice interesting hand for discussion.
You played kind of a standard OOP WA/WB line, which seems right.
Were you surprised when UK checked the river? And what did you put him on at that point? And did you find it odd that "nut" didn't do anything very nutty, jst calling along until the river? There's just no telling what he might have, and raising him was a good idea, IMO. But I am still thinking about UK.

If you assume he's a decent player, then you can try to put him on a range of hands. I think AA, KK and QQ are all pretty unlikely, since he wouldn't want it checked thru on the river so he'd bet out into 2 opps who have just been calling. I suppose TT and 99 are possible, but there are a lot of players, most players in fact that I have played with, that don't raise 99 p/f. Plus I have to think he'd bet out with a set. He could have AK or AQ or KQ, suited or no, and I found myself thinking of AJh with him missing his flush draw, and checking the river. And I guess he could have small pairs. In a hand like this one where UK was betting and you and nutso were just calling, and since he just sat down, I think UK would be betting if he had a K or a Q, or both, or a set.

So I like your C/R and I'd call a 3-bet.

krimson · #6 11-25-2005, 12:14 PM

I sort of like this, but it seems slim after some analysis. All-in-all it's hard to know how good this is when villian is unknown.

Given his pre-flop raise and continued betting on the flop and turn, I think he has a pair here at least, but since he checked the river he is not likely to have anything 2-pair and up. A likely range is AK/AQ/KJ/KT/JJ/TT. The only hand I see us folding out of these that has us beat is AQ, and maaaybe sometimes a KJ/KT will fold.

If the unknown is a thinking player he is likely aware of the fact that we just c/c'd each street when we have perfect position relative to him to have value raised the field. Chances are, we don't have a big hand like a set or the straight. River was a dud, so it's not like we all of sudden hit our hand. As such, all we are really representing with our raise here is a K with a questionable kicker.

I think the nut would have raised a K somewhere in here given his AF, so that half of the "prevent overcalls" river play is perfect.

I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from this analysis, I guess it's just some thoughts on the hand to help feed discussion.

edit: Okay, a conclusion now that I thought about it.

The pot is ~13BB's if we assume the nut calls. The play costs us 2BB's to make. Therefore the planets only need to align approximately 1 time in 6 for us to profit.

I think, given the range and what he may fold, we certainly fold AQ/KT out of this hand often enough that this play is profitable.

bobhalford · #7 11-25-2005, 01:59 PM

I had this play made on me a few weeks ago (me being the "unknown"). There was a "nut" in the hand who bet the river with his A high, the "hero" raised with his 97s after pairing his 9 on the turn, and I folded QQ (the flop had a K in it). When the hands were shown I got upset to say the least. In order to make this play, you want to be fairly sure that then "unknown" is tight enough to fold a better hand. The "hero" in my hand knew this of me...he thought I had folded AK, but I would have called with that. Worked out well for him...he knew that there was no chance to win the hand unless he faced me with calling 2 cold on the river.

#8 11-25-2005, 02:01 PM

This is a beautiful play. The only time you can really bluff out a strong hand in limit hold'em is by making him face two bets on the big streets. Well played sir.

W. Deranged · #9 11-25-2005, 04:09 PM

Hey folks,

So the Unknown folded, the Nut called with Q3, and MHIG.

I played the hand passively on the early streets for a bunch of reasons: I'm not vulnerable to many overcards, the nut will likely continue to put in single bets incorrectly, I have gutshot and possible trips/two pair outs that I don't want to pay to dearly for, etc... I actually might have had a pretty hard time overcalling this river if the Unknown had continued to bet, and I may well have folded in that spot.

Needless to say, I was surprised when the Unknown checked the river. I was not planning on check-raising, but rather planning on having to make a marginal "gut" decision on whether to toss in a bet on the river (I think I would have folded). But I knew that the Nut would basically bet any piece of the board he had once he was checked to. Since I was easily far enough ahead of his range to merit seeing a showdown, and indeed since I was far enough ahead to merit putting in 2 bets for a showdown, I determined that raising was the correct play. It worked as a perfect kind of "value-bluff," as I knew I probably had a value raise against the Nut and had the added advantage of possibly promoting my hand to a winner if the Unknown folded AQ or KT or something like that. (I imagine, in fact, that it was more likely he folded something like AJ or JJ, but who knows...)

Thanks for the comments.

damaniac · #10 11-25-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a beautiful play. The only time you can really bluff out a strong hand in limit hold'em is by making him face two bets on the big streets. Well played sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

After he checks this river, you are rarely bluffing him out of anything: your hand is better than his most of the time (basically, when he holds AQ). But he's unknown, so there's some possibility he laid down something else. But the likely result is he folded a worse hand.