I step back for a second...

[Bill C]

In no way am I the player some of the other posters here are, including, and especially OP. But I have some questions.

Is this really a donk bet? I read it as a stop n go.
Hero raises in EP, so his range is pretty narrow, and when the Jack fell on the flop and hero raised, couldn't villain have been thinking about a set of Jacks, and decided to call and see what the turn brought?

The comment at the start of the post indicated that hero has some respect for the villain, so what range would hero put villain on? AA-99, ATs,KQs AQ seems reasonable for a guy who seems to have "a really nice game."

The third spade falls, and the guy who was cautious enough to "stop" on the flop then 3-bets. A raise and he has to be thinking he beats a big pair.

I like Hero's raise on the turn, especially if he was looking to check down UI on the river. But that 3 bet is a big gulp as far as I can see.

Very interesting hand.

bill

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I think with TP + FD, with the PF 3-bettor to his immediate left, and with another player to act after QTip, he should be check-raising this field on the flop instead of leading, and I don't think it is that close.

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I disagree [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Again, this is going to depend on his read on me, but I promise you I 3 bet his c/r.

The pot is big. He has a very nice draw, but who cares. Think of it this way:

He has AJs UTG and raises, MP calls, I'm the BB and 3 bet, he calls, MP calls. Flop comes as is. I bet, you ?

You certainly should raise. I do so not because I'm pumping a draw, although that's nice, but I'm protecting my hand. The sooner I can win this pot the better.

So, in the same way, I'd be looking to protect my hand here. If he thinks I'll raise overs, and I might with something like AdKs, then I feel it's the best way to get protection in this hand. With c/ring, I think you're making yourself hit your draw more frequently to win.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
1. I think 3 betting the flop is OK. But, really given the way the hand has played out, he's behind right now, and pumping the draw here isn't all that valuable since there's just the 3 of us.

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Why is he behind? You can't raise the flop with AK, TT, KQs, etc.? I don't like his flop lead, but I especially don't like it if he thinks that a raise from you means he's behind.

[ QUOTE ]
2. If he does catch, his bet, 3-bet line is going to work really well against me.

I mean, let's say he goes for the c/r on the turn. I'm going to bet about every time here, and there's a decent chance that the 3rd wheel is going to leave anyway. Now he raises, and that's all he gets.

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He would need absolutely stellar reads on you to know that you're willing to raise his turn donk after that flop action and the [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hits. As to the MP3 player, I don't know what sorts of reads you or he may have had on the guy, but this is someone who called 3 cold pre-flop and two-cold on the flop. I wouldn't guess that he's readily and regularly going to fold for one bet on the turn. The bet-3bet line on the turn requires (1) some degree of probability that you'll raise a donk bet; (2) some degree of probability that you'll not check the turn; and (3) some degree of probability that MP3 is likely to fold the turn even if faced with one bet. The turn is OK here (especially if he has a good read on you). I think the flop play is bad.

[QTip]

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[ QUOTE ]
1. I think 3 betting the flop is OK. But, really given the way the hand has played out, he's behind right now, and pumping the draw here isn't all that valuable since there's just the 3 of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is he behind? You can't raise the flop with AK, TT, KQs, etc.? I don't like his flop lead, but I especially don't like it if he thinks that a raise from you means he's behind.

[ QUOTE ]
2. If he does catch, his bet, 3-bet line is going to work really well against me.

I mean, let's say he goes for the c/r on the turn. I'm going to bet about every time here, and there's a decent chance that the 3rd wheel is going to leave anyway. Now he raises, and that's all he gets.

[/ QUOTE ]

He would need absolutely stellar reads on you to know that you're willing to raise his turn donk after that flop action and the [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hits. As to the MP3 player, I don't know what sorts of reads you or he may have had on the guy, but this is someone who called 3 cold pre-flop and two-cold on the flop. I wouldn't guess that he's readily and regularly going to fold for one bet on the turn. The bet-3bet line on the turn requires (1) some degree of probability that you'll raise a donk bet; (2) some degree of probability that you'll not check the turn; and (3) some degree of probability that MP3 is likely to fold the turn even if faced with one bet. The turn is OK here (especially if he has a good read on you). I think the flop play is bad.

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Bah! You're absolutely right. Man I get tunnel vision sometimes.

[Catt]

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Again, this is going to depend on his read on me, but I promise you I 3 bet his c/r.

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But that depends on you hand -- he doesn't know what you have, but he certainly is not too disappointed if you three-bet his C/R, especially if MP comes along. He's got 14 outs to the best hand unless you have specifically JJ or AA, and in those cases he still has more than 9 outs.

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big. He has a very nice draw, but who cares.

[/ QUOTE ] He has more than a draw. He has TPTK plus a draw, and your PF 3-bet doesn't mean that your hand is necessarily better when the flop comes around.

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it this way:

He has AJs UTG and raises, MP calls, I'm the BB and 3 bet, he calls, MP calls. Flop comes as is. I bet, you ?

You certainly should raise. I do so not because I'm pumping a draw, although that's nice, but I'm protecting my hand. The sooner I can win this pot the better.

So, in the same way, I'd be looking to protect my hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise in that circumstance. But that doesn't mean I'd lead in the actual hand. In order to protect my hand in the actual hand I have to both lead AND count on the fact that you'd raise AND hope that MP3 who called 3 cold pre-flop doesn't have a hand that can properly call 2 cold getting ~7:1. If the parlay for protecting looks thin, then I'll focus on value instead, and I wouldn't sacrafice the value in bets going in on the flop for the speculative value of protecting my hand OOP on the turn, especially if the strength of my hand can increase appreciably with any of 9 outs making me much more interesting in collecting bets than in protecting.

[ QUOTE ]
If he thinks I'll raise overs, and I might with something like AdKs, then I feel it's the best way to get protection in this hand. With c/ring, I think you're making yourself hit your draw more frequently to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am beating you on the flop, how many outs does MP3 have if he is behind? How am I going to face him with enough bets even those times when you cooperate and raise for me each time to convince him to laydown? What can MP3 have that I should be so worried about protection? Worst case he has an OESD (6 outs) or KQ (9 outs) or he has me beat (and then I'm not protecting). MP3 is, in the vast majority of circumstances drawing very slim, and I'd actually like to have him calling bets without proper odds rather than folding.

[Shillx]

Yeah sorry I was unclear. I was implying that he should 3-bet the flop with the 3rd party in there.

HU it becomes a lot less important to 3-bet the flop because you get more rom mixing stratigies then you do from getting value straight away. With the 3rd dude putting in dead $$$, you should just go ahead and take it IMO. You don't know if he will be willing to put that dead $$$ in on 4th street.

The thing about playing with a 3rd guy in the pot is that he makes the villians hand easier to read. So the villian might bet-call-donk a flush draw HU, but he would never do it when a 3rd guy calls 3 cold prelop and 2 cold on the flop. Use this information to get an edge. He has a big time hand when he pulls this nonsense (a very novice play IMO). Notice that if he bet-3bets QQ+/flush draw/set/AJ it becomes very hard to play against him (I don't like this play but it is a place to start). So while it will look goofy when he "spews" with a draw, it really isn't since he will usually have a hand that destroys yours.

Brad

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah sorry I was unclear. I was implying that he should 3-bet the flop with the 3rd party in there.

HU it becomes a lot less important to 3-bet the flop because you get more rom mixing stratigies then you do from getting value straight away. With the 3rd dude putting in dead $$$, you should just go ahead and take it IMO. You don't know if he will be willing to put that dead $$$ in on 4th street.

The thing about playing with a 3rd guy in the pot is that he makes the villians hand easier to read. So the villian might bet-call-donk a flush draw HU, but he would never do it when a 3rd guy calls 3 cold prelop and 2 cold on the flop. Use this information to get an edge. He has a big time hand when he pulls this nonsense (a very novice play IMO). Notice that if he bet-3bets QQ+/flush draw/set/AJ it becomes very hard to play against him (I don't like this play but it is a place to start). So while it will look goofy when he "spews" with a draw, it really isn't since he will usually have a hand that destroys yours.

Brad

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I agree with what you and Catt are saying on his flop play. I wasn't thinking clearly about it.

However, given the way he DID play the flop, I'm assuming you like the turn donk?

Great thread.