Is it good to stay in the red zone? - Page 2

LearnedfromTV · #11 10-24-2005, 11:49 PM

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you're simplifying. you have MORE +EV options when you're in red IMO.

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Even if you're right (and you're only right if you're opponents don't know how to play against a small stack) , more +EV moves from the 5BB chip stack than a 12BB chip stack doesn't mean your total tournament EV is greater. It can't be - the extra chips in the 12BB stack have intrinsic value.

pfkaok · #12 10-24-2005, 11:54 PM

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Quote:
You're confusing easy to play with having greater EV. It's easier to play a shorter stack because you have fewer options

You have more opportunities to play wiht 5xBB than 12XBB. With 5xBB, you only push, whereas with 12xBB, you can limp, raise, or push. But limping and raising are not great plays with 12xBB unless you have a big hand. Your best move with 12-15xBB is to push on a resteal.

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well. i think i might be the only one agreeing with you betgo... but i think there is a lot of merit to this idea, and i had actually thought of it a while ago but never too deeply.

sometimes i use this theory to make thinish aggressive plays at times. hard to think of one of the top of my head, but say if you're in a spot where a semibluff push might be very close to breakeven EV, but your HU and you have the villian covered. so if you push and get called and lose you'll be in the red zone... if you push and they fold your stack is VERY healthy, and if you push, get called and hit you have a monster stack. IMO, its worth it taking gambles in those types of spots.

AlcateL · #13 10-24-2005, 11:54 PM

Sure, its easier to play a short stack.. push or fold.

pfkaok · #14 10-24-2005, 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you're right (and you're only right if you're opponents don't know how to play against a small stack) , more +EV moves from the 5BB chip stack than a 12BB chip stack doesn't mean your total tournament EV is greater. It can't be - the extra chips in the 12BB stack have intrinsic value.

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no. you're misunderstanding his post (if i in fact am understanding it correctly). he's not saying your tourney EV goes up. thats obviously stupid b/c then you'd just fold with a mid stack until you hit red.

he's just saying your profitability, in terms of BB/hand is greater with a red zone stack than with an orange zone stack.

Exitonly · #15 10-24-2005, 11:59 PM

Oak, thats the second time you've quote from another post.

Get your act together.

edit: you've edited it since then, so i look stupid. But i stand by what i said

pfkaok · #16 10-25-2005, 12:04 AM

thanks. i suck at cutting and pasting somtimes. plus its probably a bad idea for me to 6 table the MTTS and try to make posts. my posts aren't good, and its def -EV for my play.

betgo · #17 10-25-2005, 12:05 AM

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Even if you're right (and you're only right if you're opponents don't know how to play against a small stack) , more +EV moves from the 5BB chip stack than a 12BB chip stack doesn't mean your total tournament EV is greater. It can't be - the extra chips in the 12BB stack have intrinsic value.

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Of course you are better off with 12xBB than 5xBB. However, if you have 10xBB, it may not be worth making a marginal play to get to 12xBB or bust out. Going down to 5xBB between blinds, antes, and oncreased limits may not be a disaster.

As the other poster points out, sometimes you may want to make a risky play with a medium stack that either makes you a short stack or a big stack. It is hard to play aggressively with a medium stack.

Obviously, if I have a big hand with 9xBB, I would fold it to blind down, but it may not be worth gambling in a marginal situation to pick up blinds or double up.

Blindcurve · #18 10-25-2005, 12:07 AM

I don't think it's advantageous to maintain a short stack. I think the short stack is still playable, but I wouldn't say it's an advantage to be short. I think your marginal hands are in too much danger of being called, sometimes in more than one place, even if you don't mind getting called because your stack is so low that you'll take 2 to 1 money odds against just about any hand.

Maybe if you explained what you meant by: [ QUOTE ]
That way, you can make EV+ pushes with marginal hands and more EV+ pushes and calls with big hands.

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Let me say first that when I'm super short (Red zone) then yes, I'm open pushing suited connectors- but for the purposes of pushing in the 6-10 range, I'm looking for a suited ace, big king, broadway, any pair.

I think it's worthwhile to start looking for marginal hands to open push starting at 10 BB's for a couple of reasons:

First, you have the most FE you're going to have, and while your stack looks pretty short, it's not so short that some players won't put you on a bigger hand than you have and fold if you launch 8-10 BB's at them. If they call, and you have a hand or suck out, you get the most value. I guess this is the conventional wisdom that you're proposing an alternative to.

Second, what often happens is you start pushing at 10 BB's, you get blinded down to about 7-8 and you push two or three marginal hands, and then you catch a hand just as someone gets fed up. I think starting to push at 10BBs gives you a weaker looking range and allows you to double up more often when you catch your big hand or when someone calls your AJ with KT.

That being said, I think it's possible to survive in the 5-10BB range with a push/fold strategy for a very long time, by being more selective than pushing any semi-playable two right at 10BB. I use the 10 BB line to start to look for opportunities to steal or double up. Furthermore, I'd really rather have 10BB's than 15. This is because I often get myself in trouble playing 15 BB's for a 3 BB raise, and then giving myself tough decisions about a 4 BB continue or fold? move in for 12? It's an area I have to work on.

Actually, I'm the short stack now in this 180 20+2, so maybe I'll put my money where my mouth is.

-D.

Postscript:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) converter

MP1 (t14083)
MP2 (t5006)
CO (t12965)
Button (t8383)
SB (t5925)
BB (t9295)
UTG (t11225)
Hero (t2578)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t1200, Hero raises to t2553, 3 folds, Button raises to t8358, 2 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t12236) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t12236) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t12236) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t12236

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ac Ad (two pair, aces and kings).
Button has Qh Qs (full house, queens full of kings).
Outcome: Button wins t12236. 

Oh, sweet irony. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

-D.

LearnedfromTV · #19 10-25-2005, 01:41 AM

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Even if you're right (and you're only right if you're opponents don't know how to play against a small stack) , more +EV moves from the 5BB chip stack than a 12BB chip stack doesn't mean your total tournament EV is greater. It can't be - the extra chips in the 12BB stack have intrinsic value.

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no. you're misunderstanding his post (if i in fact am understanding it correctly). he's not saying your tourney EV goes up. thats obviously stupid b/c then you'd just fold with a mid stack until you hit red.

he's just saying your profitability, in terms of BB/hand is greater with a red zone stack than with an orange zone stack.

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Ah. Your problem is that you think BB/hand matters. Seriously betgo, this is way more valuable as material for your guide than tourney theory.

pfkaok · #20 10-25-2005, 01:44 AM

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Ah. Your problem is that you think BB/hand matters.

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well. yeah. it matter that i'm trying to win as many chips as possible. certain stack sizes DO have strategic advantages.