5/10(6-max) deepstacked: QQ top set faces resistence

AceHiStation · #1 10-31-2005, 11:32 AM

Don't have too many reads on villain in this hand, but he seems to be pretty solid. Through 131 hands he is 19.8/6.9. I think something I need to work on with my game is knowing when to 3-bet. I plan on trying to get all the money in the turn on any non-heart. Problem of course, is the turned heart.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($1837)
SB ($2081.24)
BB ($1869.75)
UTG ($1394)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5.
1 fold, Hero raises to $36, 1 fold, BB calls $26.

Flop: ($77) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $75, BB raises to $150, Hero raises to $375, BB calls $225.

Turn: ($827) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $325, Hero calls $325.

River: ($1477) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $425, Hero calls $425.

Final Pot: $2327

AZK · #2 10-31-2005, 11:37 AM

make it 500 on the flop.

edit: at least.

psuasskicker · #3 10-31-2005, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
make it 500 on the flop.

edit: at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree...

$600 in the pot with your raise, $225 for him to call? That's an easy call.

Does he min-raise with the flush draw? Min raise looks like a big made hand to me. I like calling down in this situation...that turn is the perfect bluff card for him, and I'd definitely play a flopped mid-low set like that if I were villain.

- C -

scdavis0 · #4 10-31-2005, 11:59 AM

I agree with the first two posters. A pot sized flop re-raise is my standard line. You want to get as much money as possible in the pot when you know you are a big favorite on this drawing board.

You want to put him to the test on the flop and give him a chance to make a big mistake with a draw or worse made hand.

I wouldn't be surprised if he had J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

ObnxNole · #5 10-31-2005, 01:15 PM

You need to charge him way more on the flop. I used to make the same mistakes of raising too little with my monster hands. It allows your opponents to draw cheaply and suck out on you. If they have a hand then they will likely pay you off... He 3 bet you which means he really likes his hand...make it $500 -$700.

BobboFitos · #6 10-31-2005, 01:21 PM

many times since you have 3 queens on a Q83 board, I'll just call c/r and make a move on a turn...

Advantage is if he has a big hand (88,33) you're prolly getting it anyway, but you also let him fire away again w/ a draw - or if he has a bluff - or if he has the case queen.

Also, by just calling, allows you to call a turn bet on a bad card. (Any [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to boat up)

scdavis0 · #7 10-31-2005, 02:02 PM

I'm usually a fan of the smooth call c/r and pound him on a bad card play. On this hand I think it sucks because of how much money they have left.

I'm fairly certain that villain is ready to go to battle with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] so let him make a huge mistake by getting all-in.

I'm absolutely certain villain is willing to go to battle with 22 or 88, but there are a ton of turn cards that are going to kill our action and prevent us from getting it all.

Additionally, it might be difficult to tell which card has helped our opponent. What if the turn had been the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Are we going to freeze up? K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

Yes, I'm certain you want to make a big flop re-raise here.

BobboFitos · #8 10-31-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm usually a fan of the smooth call c/r and pound him on a bad card play. On this hand I think it sucks because of how much money they have left.

[/ QUOTE ]

If certain villain will bet any turn - and when someone c/r, they generally do - you set yourself perfectly to stack him...

Pot ~375 if you smoothcall, (both have 1600+ behind) even if he say half pots 200, if you make it 600... Pot will be almost 1600 with 1000 behind. Easy all in on river.
[ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly certain that villain is ready to go to battle with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] so let him make a huge mistake by getting all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

He mincheckraised a button raiser + continuation bet. You are severely limiting villains range here. Yes, we could goto war against a big draw (small %, esp. given min c/r) or we could play some poker on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]

I'm absolutely certain villain is willing to go to battle with 22 or 88, but there are a ton of turn cards that are going to kill our action and prevent us from getting it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are no oesd on this board. A set doesnt fear an overcard. That leaves 9 cards, which you can still get money (esp. if board pairs) anyway. This is a rather benign board...

[ QUOTE ]

Additionally, it might be difficult to tell which card has helped our opponent. What if the turn had been the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Are we going to freeze up? K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

Yes, I'm certain you want to make a big flop re-raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand why would be afraid of K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Yes, one problem is by just smooth calling, if villain is lucky enough to hit a 3 out gutshot (as we're playing slowly on the flush card anyway) he stacks you. But on X other #of cards you get more action lata in the hand...

AceHiStation · #9 10-31-2005, 02:39 PM

Villain tabled 33 for bottom set... bigger flop raise likely gets me his whole stack. The turn heart had me nervous and I slowed up as a result. I was contemplating what I would do if he pushed the river, and was unsure as to whether or not I would call a push, but most likely I would.

scdavis0 · #10 10-31-2005, 03:36 PM

It's about the depth of stacks and villain's possible hand range.

You leave money on the table if he has a big made hand.

You leave money on the table if he has a big draw (by allowing him to play more optimally).

You are overestimating the percent of time that villain bets turn (which you seem to place at 100%).

You are overestimating the amount of extra money you make when he's on a pure bluff or has a hand like TT.

You allow yourself to potentially catastrophic mistakes. Suppose villain had checked the turn. It seems crazy to check behind with top set. Prepare to vomit if you get check raised all-in though. Could he ever check-raise all in on an insane bluff?

He's going to have a set, overpair, big draw x% of the time. He's going to have a total bluff, weak made hand, weaker draw y% of the time.

He has so much money behind, and x% is sufficiently large that it's +EV to try to play a huge pot on the flop than to try to pick off some baby bluff.

If the flop was more dry, it would make sense to just call. Nothing that hits on the turn save a K or A is likely to slow villain down or sare us.