God is Love

[obsidian]

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The God of Sklanskyanity loves too. In fact it is unconditional love. All he wants is that the conscious beings he knew would one day evolve here, and elsewhere, be (as a whole) happy. ("Happy" is of course too trivial a word). He doesn't care if you believe in him unless you need to believe to behave in a way that will get you to take the non selfish choice in Prisoner Dillemma and similar situations.

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This is exactly what I have thought of God for quite a while now. I could simply not come to the conclusion that God actually cares what you believe. I think it is the biggest problem with the Christian religion. How can a God that has never told you what to believe have such expections with the consequences so dire as to determine your fate for the rest of eternity?

Now, before you tell me that God has told me through the bible, why should the bible be any more truthful than the scriptures of other religions? How can one be more right than the other? There have been thousands of civilizations all worshipping those who or whom they thought were gods. What about them?

[obsidian]

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I think you're wrong on this detail, but as to the substance, you seem to think that God may not kill. Our assertion is that all are guilty before God. Executing justice does not compromise love. He is love from all eternity, He is love whether He creates or not, and He can enforce His Word without losing the attribute of love.

Have you ever had to punish someone you love, for instance your children? Obviously, this analogy quickly breaks down, but it makes a valid point. Sin against God is really serious, it's not a misdemeanor. And physical death is a small punishment compared to what sin requires.

I believe that much of the apparent harshness in the Old Testament was specifically for the instruction of people. We take sin very lightly, we find any excuse we can, and we don't really think God is much concerned about it. So God gave very drastic lessons during Old Testament times. But He did nothing that was ultimately unfair.

Rather than focusing on your concept of love, try considering God's concept of justice and righteousness. If you can't accept it, I have no deeper answer.

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So basically God can kill anyone he wants for doing anything thanks to natural sin? I can see no other way to reconcile the killing of first born children. And that's not the God I want to believe in.

[NotReady]

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And that's not the God I want to believe in


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If God is omnipotent He is directly or indirectly involved with the death of every living creature. As I said before, God cannot do wrong. He cannot murder. What you want is an idol, a god made in the image of man. You want God to be subject to your law. You have it backwards and upside down.

[David Sklansky]

You have still not told me where you stand in the dispute between udon't know and Pair The Board.

[udontknowmickey]

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Thank you for your thoughtful response.

For me, I need to use words in their plain meaning. You say that "it is entirely logical for God to represent a love that is not fully understood by us (or maybe even seemingly against our human definition of love)." The lists of deaths caused by God that Maurile posted cannot be reconciled with any definition of love that makes sense. That it may be a love that is beyond our understanding is to render the term "love" meaningless.


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I did forget one of my points, though I feel that some people (Christians included) will disagree with me on this.

God's love is shown in two specific ways
1) In his covenant loving kindness (hebrew word hesed) to His people. This is the love that results in Him raining down blessings upon His people. It is shown in His promises to preserve a remnant. Anytime people appeal to God for deliverance they appeal to this covenant, His ever lasting promise that He will preserve His people. This love is not extended to all people. In the answers I gave to PTB above, I have demonstrated that God HATES the non-elect.

2) Though God HATES the non-elect, He does show a general forebearing love to them in sending sun and rain down upon them, revealing Himself in nature, and allowing them to live for an instant. The deaths of people directly or indirectly caused by God (that you listed, I would say God has a direct hand behind every death, though for different purposes) are decreed by God to bring glory to Himself.

The elect and non-elect have no qualifications in themselves. They are both unqualified, unable to save themselves, but out of the depths of God's love for His people, He choose to save them for His own purpose.

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You say that "For you, the concept of love is contradictory to the killing of people, but for God this love is right alongside His justice." Again, to me, it is a strange kind of justice that would entail killing all life except for two of each speices, or all the first-born of every Egyptian, many of whom, one would suspect, had nothing whatsoever to do with the enslavement of His People.


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Well, actually if God was completely just and not loving, then we should all be dead. We, by our very nature, sin against God, and each of these sins, against a being infinite in character and perfect in holiness, are deserving of infinite punishment. So yes, I must qualify my statement. God's justice has been, is being, and will be satisfied. For those who are elect, the payment has been through the cross. For those who are not, they pay themselves with their souls in eternity.

I guess my challenge to you is to define what justice is. Who determines what the correct punishment for each crime is? What if the crime is for the good of some but wrongs others? You pulled up the example of Bin-Ladden saying that he was claiming to be doing the will of God and you observe that it seems indefensible.

But if you believe that God has revealed Himself infallibly in the Scriptures, then you do have a basis to judge what is the will of God and what is not. In addition to that, you will see that since God is a God that is in control of everything and perfect in holiness, we as a human race, by not giving Him the glory and worship that He deserves, are deserving of death.

I put forth that all statements find their value only in relation to God, and specifically God as revealed to us in Scripture. From Him comes justice, mercy, kindness, love, and ultimately meaning.

[David Sklansky]

"But if you believe that God has revealed Himself infallibly in the Scriptures, then you do have a basis to judge what is the will of God and what is not."

Correct. Why can't Pair The Board understand this?

[udontknowmickey]

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"But if you believe that God has revealed Himself infallibly in the Scriptures, then you do have a basis to judge what is the will of God and what is not."

Correct. Why can't Pair The Board understand this?


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I don't know if you are serious, but I will give what Scripture says anyways:

Peter writing about the Apostle Paul's writings in 1 Peter 3:15-16

"..just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. "

And while PairTheBoard was not specifically referencing Paul, I believe the verse is applicable as well.

Well, the base problem is that PTB denied the infalliblility of Scripture to begin with.

[udontknowmickey]

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I'm not concerned about god allowing the bad things that have happened in history. I'm concerned about him doing some of them. Look at that list Maurile posted. Didn't god intend to wipe out all life, only to be convinced otherwise by Noah? Could it be possible that every single man, woman and child


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Yes, every single man, woman, and child who has ever walked on the earth is wicked with the exception of Christ.

This includes Noah, whom God spared because of God's love for His people.

I ask you though: how do you judge something as "good" or "bad"? Is it something that culture defines? Is it something that people define? How can you make absolute moral judgements like "Hitler was wrong"? How can you make demands on people to obey a moral code without some sort of authority that demands it? How do you judge God as doing "good" or "evil" ? By what standard are you measuring Him against? When was destroying life defined as "bad"?

In fact, if we are just a link on the evolutionary chain, then destroying life that isn't mine is good for my survival unless they can help me survive. Is this true? Why or why not?

[mackthefork]

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What distinguishes murder committed by man and death in which God is involved is motive. God is soverign and He fixes the length of life for all His creatures. His motive is always righteous, thus He cannot murder, but He has authority over life and death.


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Hi NotReady

This is what the people thought of the Institution of the King previous to the 19th century, the King was divinely appointed, he was always right, and was never questioned. He believed in this himself, and he had to die for it and the sickness of his inhumanity committed in the name of god, and sanctioned by the church.

Motives can always be questioned, whether mine the Kings or Gods regardless, we all have to justify our actions, and suffer consequences for them.

Regards Mack

[udontknowmickey]

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Motives can always be questioned, whether mine the Kings or Gods regardless, we all have to justify our actions, and suffer consequences for them.


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So by what standard are we measuring our actions? What determines if something is "just" and "fair" or "wrong" and "injust" ?

If the standards are arbitrary, why should people agree to those standards? What if I deem Nazi Germany was my definition of "just"? What is wrong with that?

If society disagrees, why should I listen to society? What binding force does society have upon me?

The difference between us and God, is that it is God who unilaterally determines what just and injust and right and wrong are. These are laid forth in His Scriptures. If we disagree with them and disobey them, punishment will follow. If we obey them, then reward. This is why there is a universal "just" and "right" and "wrong" that we can measure Nazi Germany against, that we can measure the kings of this world against. While we may not be in an individual position to exact punishment (which is reserved for government, family, and church), there is an ultimate judge that will judge and hold accountable all things.