Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.

TheSeeker03 · #1 10-11-2005, 03:16 PM

Thank you all for your replies.

Alittle background on myself: I am a 5.5 PTBB/100 player over the last 20k hands at PP 25NL. Nothing to write home about, but not clueless either.

The reason for my pot-building "to 0.75" raise from BB w/AK is that recently I looked at my stats and saw that I am barely breaking even w/AK. So I decided to experiment with different strategies of playing it. My thinking was that if I raise big I only get called by pocket pairs. And some of them tend to soak up continuation bets. So I decided to build the pot so everybody calls. That way I bet my TPTK or check. But that's a discussion for another day.

Let's go back to this exciting hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($24.30)
MP1 ($28.75)
MP2 ($18)
MP3 ($4.75)
CO ($28.30)
Button ($33.10)
SB ($42.75)
Hero ($23.40)
UTG ($15.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $0.5, UTG calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, SB folds.

Flop: ($3.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets $3, UTG folds, MP1 calls $3, CO calls $3.

Turn: ($12.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $3, MP1 calls $3, CO calls $3.

So, based on your answers, I made another mistake. I am giving the right odds for drawing hands. I had an eerie feeling about 2 pot-sized calls so I decided to slow down. But I didn't want to give a free card either. So I bet somwhere in between ...

River: ($21.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $3, MP1 calls $22 (All-In), CO folds, Hero calls $13.65 (All-In).

Final Pot: $59.90

I value bet the river.

This last call is basically out of spite. I didn't have a very good self control at that point. At least I quit 4-tabling right after the hand and went to bed, deciding to cut my losses. Of course, I got sucked out on with the last card. classic.

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kh Ad (one pair, aces).
MP1 has 8c Ts (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: MP1 wins $59.90.

kurto · #2 10-11-2005, 03:55 PM

I still don't think you should be making these small raises. (1) you lose the ability to win it preflop. (2) you now encourage people to stay in with crap because they will all have pot odds.

This reminds me of the guys who always minraised with any good hand. Since he had better then a full stack, I began calling with all sorts of junk because I knew he liked his hand and I was getting better then 3 to 1 on my money. Those are the times when you bust the guy with aces when you call with 8-j suited out of position, hit 2 pair and bust them. Then they yell at you for calling with crap.

For the record, I vary how I play AK in the bb. Either I raise big or I limp. Frankly, I think position is so important and I'd rathar play most hands oop weakly for a small pot so that I'm not forced to bet into a field of callers. But, when I do decide to raise it, I'm going to raise it to at least $1.50.

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking was that if I raise big I only get called by pocket pairs.

[/ QUOTE ] You must be at different tables then me. I have people calling raises with A5os and 5-Q suited from any position at the $25 and $50 tables. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
So I decided to build the pot so everybody calls. That way I bet my TPTK or check. But that's a discussion for another day.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's a key factor of this hand and should be discussed today. The problem is you're building a pot preflop that you're going to have to play out of position, you haven't narrowed the field... and now your bets are going to have to be large (and obviously larger on the turn and river). Its because of this why, on the turn, you're betting $3 into a $12 pot, giving any type of draw the correct odds to draw out on you. You've bloated the pot and now you can't play it correctly without risking essentially your entire stack on a TPTK hand.

PinkSteel · #3 10-11-2005, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I think position is so important and I'd rathar play most hands oop weakly for a small pot so that I'm not forced to bet into a field of callers. But, when I do decide to raise it, I'm going to raise it to at least $1.50.

[/ QUOTE ]

Words to live by

#4 10-11-2005, 04:09 PM

Just curious on a related note. Is a minraise in any position pre-flop ever correct? I would think no.

#5 10-11-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious on a related note. Is a minraise in any position pre-flop ever correct? I would think no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very rarely. Maybe if you're trying to mix up your play, prevent people reading your bet sizes. Or creating a donk image of yourself. But at small stakes where chances are most the villians at your table aren't paying attention to whether you raise 2xBB or 5xBB with AA it's a -EV play.

gulebjorn · #6 10-11-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious on a related note. Is a minraise in any position pre-flop ever correct? I would think no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, say you are in the BB with a small pocket pair. Your chances of hitting trips are 7:1. So if there are 7 limpers and the SB completes, and you minraise, you will get 8 more BB's in the pot, for one of your own. I guess that's a profitable play.

I didn't factor in implied odds on that one. It's hard to quantify, but if you hit your trips, you will be able to bet bigger because the pot is bigger and people will tend to stay in longer.

So in this example, maybe it could even be profitable with 6 limpers, maybe 5.

Same logic could be applied to other drawing hands like Axs or SC's.

And for the record: I never minraise PF. I've just been thinking about this some. Not at all sure I'm correct though.

kurto · #7 10-11-2005, 04:41 PM

There's only one time I've ever min(re)raised, and that was post flop when I wanted to play a hand heads up, but without losing the original raiser... so I minraised making it less enticing for others to call, but keeping the original guy in.

Preflop, I can only think of one reason to minraise:
If you're at a table and you know some maniac/lag bet, was called by a bunch of limpers, and you know the LAG will reopen the betting if you minraise it, and you have aces and know it will allow you to get him all in preflop, then maybe a minraise is in order. But that's so rare, its the exception.

Most of the time, I see this from the idiotic minraisers... 4-5 people limp pf, the button minraises it, UTG makes a major reraise, and then everyone including the minraiser folds. If you're going to minraise it, then you should be prepared to play a real raise, perhaps even up to an all in.

2 other thoughts: I always wonder... If one is sitting at a $25 table and they minraise it every time they're in a hand, I don't understand why the person doesn't just sit at a $50 table? Since the raise is doing nothing except doubling the big blind, they should just move up a table.

The other is related to minraising... nothing spells fish more then these guys who call raises PF... the pot is now $4 and some guy in EP now leads on the flop... for a quarter, then folds when someone raises it. Is there any point to that quarter bet other then it being a charitable donation to your opponents? lol

gulebjorn · #8 10-11-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2 other thoughts: I always wonder... If one is sitting at a $25 table and they minraise it every time they're in a hand, I don't understand why the person doesn't just sit at a $50 table? Since the raise is doing nothing except doubling the big blind, they should just move up a table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe because it's like a $50 table with 0.10 - 0.25 blinds?

mudbuddha · #9 10-11-2005, 05:57 PM

i min-raise all the time low pockets/suited connectors.. mix it up instead of always calling..(at tight tables that refuse to give action post flop)
.. but not AK..