The Running Bad Competition (NC)

[DrewOnTilt]

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Argh just flopped another [censored] set of aces and lost Somebody [censored] shoot me

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Just flopped top 2 against a calling station who proceded to never raise with the flopped straight in a 4-way pot. He would have made more money and I could've laid down. Bah!

I promise to do so as long as I can just mortally wound you so that you have enough energy to shoot ME before you expire.

[Bluffoon]

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Argh just flopped another [censored] set of aces and lost Somebody [censored] shoot me

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Just flopped top 2 against a calling station who proceded to never raise with the flopped straight in a 4-way pot. He would have made more money and I could've laid down. Bah!

I promise to do so as long as I can just mortally wound you so that you have enough energy to shoot ME before you expire.

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Deal

[Harv72b]

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I had a 3 month period starting in May where I lost 450BBs. I still don't have it all back.

Prior to that, I was 2+BB/100 at every level below 15/30 (1.6BB/100 there) over a total of almost 250K hands.

During the downswing I kept dropping levels and still losing. Eventually I got to 3/6 and was still only breaking even and began to think that I'd just been on a 250K hand hot streak and that I really wasn't a very good player. And then, boom, one day a it just kinda turned around and I've been steadily winning ever since.

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This is exactly what I went through from late April through July. Exactly.

[mterry]

I've been wanting to rant about this for a while. All stats 4-tabling 3/6 party:


Obviously, there seems to be an abrupt change in the trend around June. After doing some analysis and talking to friends, I am now beginning to attribute my 'running bad' to the following:

1) resolving to play tighter
After having a discussion with a friend in Vegas, I decided I wanted to cut out a lot of unprofitable hands. At the time I was around 23 VPIP beating 3/6 for abou 3BB/100 over 45k hands. Shortly thereafter, I was playing a mostly 18-20 VPIP game. About that time I stopped winning. I've since readjusted to about 20-21, and my gut instinct is that my personal optimal play is around this range. The key word here is table image I believe. Also, I recently read in cardplayer that changing styles is like changing personalities. Fundamentally, maybe it shouldn't be such a deliberative process.

2) relying on my poker income
After finishing a Masters in may, I decided to take the summer off and not start work until September. Given my streak at 3/6 for the year, I was confident I could have fun, travel, and pay for it solely with poker. WRONG. The break-even swing came halfway through the summer as I was racking up lots of eating, flying, and drinking bills. As I started to break even in cards, the bills continued to poor in and the added stress really affected my game. After I went from a personal record of +180BB in a day, to -200BB the next day, I asked my employer to move up my start date. I 'couldnt take it anymore'. On top of the frustration, I was getting bored as my friends all had jobs and school.

3) applying concepts from SSHE incorrectly
I finally got around to reading SSHE in June, and the major contributions to my knowledge of poker was the technique of pot protection and concept of equity. I began to spew chips more aggressively with mediocre hands/draws. Whether I was trying to protect or value bets hands with equity, there was a lot of chip spewing going on. I'm still working on this.

4) Tougher Games and Bad Table Selection
I've stumbled across a number of threads discussing the differences at certain limits and sites, and I definitely believe party 3/6 action has changed significantly over a year toward more taggy play. It is still very beatable, but I am not adjusting properly. Also, I generally choose the first available 3/6 table b/c I feel I am giving up a lot of +EV by taking 15-20 minutes to scout out tables properly. What is the most efficient way to scout quickly? Will GameTime+ display the imported stats if I am observing, not sitting at a particular table?

Any help or insights in any area I mentioned would be helpful. Now that I have a job, I've almost given up on poker.

[mterry]

did anyone see this?

[DrewOnTilt]

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did anyone see this?

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Well it is late on a Sat. night now.

You might want to start a new post to discuss your main questions.

[flair1239]

I laugh at 250BB downswings

[partygirluk]

[jstewsmole]

Down 125 BB since sept 1 (not including rakeback).
3 weeks in august i was down about 200 bb and recovered pretty decently for the month of august.

The august downswing lasted a little over 20K hands. This one is at 16K so far.

Was running pretty good from the start of the year to august. I couldnt imagine how disturbing(long) these swings would be if i played live exclusively. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[Harv72b]

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1) resolving to play tighter
After having a discussion with a friend in Vegas, I decided I wanted to cut out a lot of unprofitable hands. At the time I was around 23 VPIP beating 3/6 for abou 3BB/100 over 45k hands. Shortly thereafter, I was playing a mostly 18-20 VPIP game. About that time I stopped winning. I've since readjusted to about 20-21, and my gut instinct is that my personal optimal play is around this range. The key word here is table image I believe. Also, I recently read in cardplayer that changing styles is like changing personalities. Fundamentally, maybe it shouldn't be such a deliberative process.

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I believe that the "changing styles" they're referring to is more in line with NL play than limit; irregardless, I don't think that cutting out some hands that you had been losing with could possibly be bad for your game. I also let my VPIP creep up into the low 20's for a while, initially with some success, but quickly found that I do better sticking right around 20%. It's possible that your postflop skill/game selection is so good that you actually lose some EV by not playing the hands in question, but again...if they were unprofitable before, they're probably unprofitable now. And if you are so good at the game that you can maintain a WR above 3/100 while playing at a 23% VPIP, you should probably have moved up some time ago.

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2) relying on my poker income
After finishing a Masters in may, I decided to take the summer off and not start work until September. Given my streak at 3/6 for the year, I was confident I could have fun, travel, and pay for it solely with poker. WRONG. The break-even swing came halfway through the summer as I was racking up lots of eating, flying, and drinking bills. As I started to break even in cards, the bills continued to poor in and the added stress really affected my game. After I went from a personal record of +180BB in a day, to -200BB the next day, I asked my employer to move up my start date. I 'couldnt take it anymore'. On top of the frustration, I was getting bored as my friends all had jobs and school.

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Many, many people have this problem when they try to go "pro" at poker, even if only for a short period of time as you did. I say this not from personal experience, but rather from reading the many accounts that have been posted here in the past. The pressure to win becomes a whole lot greater when you're really relying on your poker income, and this can & often will increase the length & severity of downswings as you press too hard to get back on track. The fact that you have an advanced degree & job waiting are worth far more to you than any advice any of us could give.

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3) applying concepts from SSHE incorrectly
I finally got around to reading SSHE in June, and the major contributions to my knowledge of poker was the technique of pot protection and concept of equity. I began to spew chips more aggressively with mediocre hands/draws. Whether I was trying to protect or value bets hands with equity, there was a lot of chip spewing going on. I'm still working on this.

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Post hands. Read hands. We all had difficulty properly applying SSH when we first read it, and the only way around this is experience. However, you can speed the process up a lot by learning from others' mistakes on these forums.

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4) Tougher Games and Bad Table Selection
I've stumbled across a number of threads discussing the differences at certain limits and sites, and I definitely believe party 3/6 action has changed significantly over a year toward more taggy play. It is still very beatable, but I am not adjusting properly. Also, I generally choose the first available 3/6 table b/c I feel I am giving up a lot of +EV by taking 15-20 minutes to scout out tables properly. What is the most efficient way to scout quickly? Will GameTime+ display the imported stats if I am observing, not sitting at a particular table?

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PokerAce HUD is a great tool that you should try out; it's also free. And it will display table stats in realtime, whether you're sitting or observing (at least on Party skins).

As far as whether you're losing EV by scouting out better tables, I think this depends on how long your sessions typically are; if you're only playing for an hour or less at a time, then you're probably right about just taking the first open seat you find. But if you play longer sessions, then the increased EV you'll get out of finding a really good table vs. sitting at one populated by TAGs will more than make up for the 5 or 10 minutes you have to wait for a seat to open. Try this trick: when you first start your session, go ahead and sit at the first open spot you find & get one table going. Then, scout around & find three good tables to waitlist, while playing the one table. As you work your way through your session, check the lobby every few minutes to see if you're missing out on a really good game, and join more waiting lists as you find them, dropping mediocre tables when better ones open up. Of course you'll need accounts on two party skins to do this while 4-tabling.