Let’s take a few minutes on the couch.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't recall ever once saying that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to do a search. I must be confusing you with another poster. Sorry, no offense was intended in any case. But, I do remember the phrase because it was used on more than one occasion.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't recall ever once saying that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to do a search. I must be confusing you with another poster. Sorry, no offense was intended in any case. But, I do remember the phrase because it was used on more than one occasion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I searched myself and found two references. However, I think your initial characterization is taken out of context. For example, I referred to Jeff V's "warm and fuzzy" feelings leading to faith as a response to his post about his feelings-based rationale for coming to the church. On the second occasion, I referred to such feelings after a poster (actually you, RJT) used "I like the concept of my faith " as part of his rationale (actually listed as #1 but order did not necessarily imply precedence) for belief. In other words, I only cited the "warm and fuzzy" when the poster himself used such feelings as a basis for faith, but I have not implied that all Christians come through faith solely as a need for warm and fuzzy feelings.

Incidentally, you ask why atheists seem "bitter" towards believers. Maybe because of their use of such rationale like your "I like the concept of my faith" as basis for belief, and yet at the same time trying to maintain that they are intellectually honest. Your burden of proof is a terrible double standard, mine is not (I don't let science off the hook for everything because "I like the concept of it"). And it is somewhat frustrating debating with people in a sci/philo forum who are obtusely so intellectually dishonest. I have posted criticisms of many atheist posts which make claims that are not supportable, despite my general agreement with atheists. You and your cronies continually support the faulty logic, the assumptions = conclusions, the double standard of proof, etc. of each other ad nauseum. However, this does not make me bitter or frustrated in actuality. Why? Because I believe your lapses of consistency and logic are obvious to any objective reader and make a great case for an "on the fence" theist to re-examine their views. So, it is not you who will be "converted" by such debate. But exposing your arguments, may inadverently (for you) help others question the grounds of their faith.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say so.

Consider this: Take a smart, healthy young person. There's an awful lot he or she can do with his life. There are some phenomenal pleasures to be experienced, be they athletics, partying, love, art, music, learning, games, etc. etc. etc. There's also a darn lot of personally fulfilling career things someone can experience, and a lot that one person can do to help society, and to help others live a higher quality of life.

Now suppose you were taught from a young age that this amazing experience that we call life DOESN'T MATTER...because afterward you go to some magical world that's infinitely better if you do this one silly thing that takes absolutely no effort and even the most useless person in the world can do, and if you don't do it, you are punished infinitely.

So now, since life doesn't matter, all there is to do is to believe that a dead carpenter came back to life, and maybe try and get some other people to do the same thing.

*believes*

w00t. I believe in a dead carpenter. Wow. I've just accomplished more than I can ever do through hard work, compassion and academic passion.

I think this is a pretty good way to get the losers of society to feel like they've done something worthwhile, and honestly, it's pretty demotivating.

[/ QUOTE ]


This post is very accurate in describing the "Jesus saves" mentality.

The responses so far to this have been really good. I would like to hypthoesize that there probably are some psychological reasons why people believe in God. (Yes, a lot of people are raised to believe their religion, but in the U.S., a lot fewer people "practice" their faith, by raising their kids in Church, than merely "believe".)

I think the psychological reasons are "hope", "fear", and "comfort". People hope that there is an after-life, fear that death may be final, and are comforted that they will not cease to exist after they die. They hope that life is fair, fear that bad people will get away without being punished, and and are comforted that god will take care of it. They are comforted by having an all-powerful father who loves them, and will look after them. They fear bad things happening to them, and hope and are comforted that God will protect them. They fear the unknown, and are comforted that the answer to all unknowns is "God".

Hope, fear, and comfort. There are probably a lot of reasons, but I think that sums it up.

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> Hope, fear, and comfort. There are probably a lot of reasons, but I think that sums it up.
</font>

This makes a lot of sense, but I find just one problem. Even atheists have hope, fear, and comfort issues. Wouldn't we ALL like to believe that there is a better place waiting for us where our existence will never end, that evil will not go unpunished, and that someone is looking after us?

This might sound mean, but we all want these things so at some point doesn't it really come down to a predisposition for gullibility over rationality?

[Trantor]

On the couch!

I can remember when I was ten and positively said to myself that their is no God. I don't see this as the result of any psychological problem but simply as the result of considering what to me made sense. I would say I had a psychological need to "know" what is and isn't the case, ie a need to make rational enquiries and come to conclusions (sound or not is another matter!) based on those enquiries (or presented information).

I equally believe most believers in God did not end up believing in God because of any psychological problems.

There is a commonality to both sides. The human brain is wired up to attempt to make sense of the world of which it is concious of (whether by design by God or evolutionary demands is irrelevant to the point)and different folks make sense of the world in different ways.

I am talking in broad terms, but I trust you get the basic thesis here.

[ QUOTE ]
Even atheists have hope, fear, and comfort issues. Wouldn't we ALL like to believe that there is a better place waiting for us where our existence will never end, that evil will not go unpunished, and that someone is looking after us?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll go out on a limb and say that this is certainly not true of everybody equally. I would surmise that there is a strong correlation between atheists and libertarians. Some of the correlation is due, in my opinion, to: (1) commitment to reason, (2) skepticism of broad-sweeping claims by either the church or politicians, and ... (3) a belief that man can act as his own agent to create his destiny without the need for a god construct, (4) strong commitment to freedom, and the possible consequences freedom entails (we accept the risks and personal responsibility). Those more susceptible to needing a "better place" waiting for them or someone looking out for them are *probably* less individualistic by nature. I'll use my brain, my abilities, and take my chances without some higher-dimensional being having my back. If I fail or am wrong, I can live with that (and if I'm burning in Hell for eternity, I will be thinking "this is still a stupid idea.")

[ QUOTE ]
The human brain is wired up to attempt to make sense of the world of which it is concious of

[/ QUOTE ]

I would argue that the vast majority of humans prefer to NOT use their brain in this manner, but rather have someobody else do that and tell them the results.

"I would argue that the vast majority of humans prefer to NOT use their brain in this manner, but rather have someobody else do that and tell them the results."

AMEN!!

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Hope, fear, and comfort. There are probably a lot of reasons, but I think that sums it up.
</font>

This makes a lot of sense, but I find just one problem. Even atheists have hope, fear, and comfort issues. Wouldn't we ALL like to believe that there is a better place waiting for us where our existence will never end, that evil will not go unpunished, and that someone is looking after us?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that's true for most people, atheists and theists alike. I didn't mean that these were the only reason why people believe. Belief is very complicated -- a lot of factors are involved. I believe some of those factors are psychological. But, people who have a strong fear of death, will be more likely to believe in god and an after life than someone who doesn't fear death as much. Some people are better at dealing with uncertainty -- these people will be less inclined to grasp onto an answer for answer's sake.

[ QUOTE ]
This might sound mean, but we all want these things so at some point doesn't it really come down to a predisposition for gullibility over rationality?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... that may be part of it, too. For me, personally, I've always been an extremely inquisitive and skeptical person. That's just my nature. Some people care less about facts, and more about feeling good. Sometimes I envy those people.