KQo v TAG

joker122 · #1 07-06-2005, 12:36 AM

villain:
{{TOT HANDS: 218 - VP$IP: 23 - PFR: 11
WSD: 30 - FSB: 50 - FBB: 0
ASB: 8 - AF-TOT: 1.8 - AF-F: 2.5
AF-T: 9.0 - AF-R: 5.3}}

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

PokerBob · #2 07-06-2005, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
villain:
{{TOT HANDS: 218 - VP$IP: 23 - PFR: 11
WSD: 30 - FSB: 50 - FBB: 0
ASB: 8 - AF-TOT: 1.8 - AF-F: 2.5
AF-T: 9.0 - AF-R: 5.3}}

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you calling the turn and then folding the river? You are not drawing. Either fold it or show it down. By calling you are saying "My hand is worth showing down." This is awful.

Surfbullet · #3 07-06-2005, 01:16 AM

This hand doesn't make any sense - you don't have odds to chase your 5 outer, which may or may not be good. You may already be ahead - and him betting the river doesn't mean he has to have an A, QT or 99 or some-such hand will valuebet this river often enough to warrant a call.

Either call him down because you think he's aggressive enough to bet worse hands, or fold the turn. You have to call the flop because this type of player will autobet every flop, you find out on the turn whether he really means business.

IMHO you have a turn fold here given his stats, very tight and very aggressive, but selective about showdowns, so he likely isn't even trying to buy a free showdown - assuming he knows you are a TAG too this is a value-bet on his part and that means he can beat your 2nd pair, or he's on a bluff w/ a small PP or a no pair hand.

Surf

SkittleBrau · #4 07-06-2005, 01:21 AM

Take my "advice" with a grain of salt, but I probably bet the flop.

But given how passively you played it and his aggression, I think I pay off on the river since he could play any number of heands you beat that way, no?

Also, I don't see what changed between the turn and river. You must have figured you were ahead on the turn to call since the pot wasn't offering odds for a 5? out draw.

J.R. · #5 07-06-2005, 01:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
By calling you are saying "My hand is worth showing down."

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, that'a why he doesn't think his opponent bets a worse hand on the river. whether he's right I dunno, but its logical and the correct line against some opponents.

imitation · #6 07-06-2005, 01:57 AM

The first two replies in this thread are awful....sorry guys but you obviously aren't even thinking beyond autopilot when you play this game...don't you realise that many many of the too tight TAGs playing this game will check the river after you've called them down on a drawless board and only bet when they have an A here.

I don't know if plays like this are more profitable than calling down or if folding the turn is better, but it's definitely not horrible.

This hands a bit different because of the location of the player raising from MP as opposed to most of these HU hands which are played from blind steals. Also his location at the table relative to you means you won't be HU often so folding the turn is probably ok because you don't get a weak image with this player and he's unlikely to keep pushing you around.

kurosh · #7 07-06-2005, 02:20 AM

I play it the same. Maybe gaybet the turn and see what happens.

Surfbullet · #8 07-06-2005, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The first two replies in this thread are awful....sorry guys but you obviously aren't even thinking beyond autopilot when you play this game...don't you realise that many many of the too tight TAGs playing this game will check the river after you've called them down on a drawless board and only bet when they have an A here.

I don't know if plays like this are more profitable than calling down or if folding the turn is better, but it's definitely not horrible.

This hands a bit different because of the location of the player raising from MP as opposed to most of these HU hands which are played from blind steals. Also his location at the table relative to you means you won't be HU often so folding the turn is probably ok because you don't get a weak image with this player and he's unlikely to keep pushing you around.

[/ QUOTE ]

It requires a very specific type of TAG (and read) to know that this player will bet enough worse hands on the turn to call expecting him to check through on the river...and that a river bet means specifically an A or better and not a bluff.

His stats indicate that he is too-tight preflop, and may fold too much postflop, but his aggression is certainly high enough that he may bet too often, and bluff too much.

However, if we are to assume that he will only bet an A or better on the river, then I think the # of hands that we beat that he bets on the turn is not much greater than that which he bets on the river, thus a turn fold is correct.

Surf

imitation · #9 07-06-2005, 03:53 AM

Yes I agree in this hand folding the turn is best, but that is mostly because it is an MP raise, I was critical of the idea that if you call the turn you must show down.

mungpo · #10 07-06-2005, 03:54 AM

I call the river.