Good spot for overcalls ?

wall_st · #1 08-09-2005, 05:28 AM

I just reread small stakes hold em, the river play seems like a good spot to play for overcalls. The flop call is rather loose, this table has been even looser though. I am only getting 7:1 on the flop call, it feels and looks wrong but I was pretty sure I would have at least one more coming along, does that still make this call criminal ?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

ecooke · #2 08-09-2005, 06:10 AM

I do think the flop call is pretty dubious - no one has called in front, you don't close the action, and one of your outs makes the flush. But if the table plays passive and you expect to collect additonal bets when the draw comes in, could be fine (although hardly seems the case based on the action of this hand).
However, I like the river move for overcalls.

Webster · #3 08-09-2005, 07:12 AM

Pre flop is OK - Flop is RIGHT on the edge - if you less people in the hand ya gotta fold.

I think you have to raise on the river and not call - I understand overcalls but I don't think you have enough players behind you to call.

Grinderswarehouse - NOT just another BLOG

stonecoldnuts · #4 08-09-2005, 07:35 AM

I'd raise in this spot. If the table is as loose as you say you might have a shot at some one calling 2 cold behind you. I'd like to have at least 1 more player behind me before going for overcalls here.

sy_or_bust · #5 08-09-2005, 08:20 AM

The flop call is undesirable because you are first to act - if it gets raised behind you, which is sometimes will, you're in bad shape. This pushes the flop to a fold.

Overcalls are great when you have a more modest hand that figures to beat the bettor often enough but does not warrant jamming or knocking out opponents, since a reraise is bad news. These situations tend to yield greater EV for calling than raising - it helps to be able to read the hands of potential overcallers also.

This is not one of those situations because you hold the nuts, and most draws have busted (hearts, 76, etc.). Still, no one figures to have a strong hand, and when they do it will raise behind you. MP1 looks weak and may not call a raise. I don't think overcalls are such a bad idea.

crunchy1 · #6 08-09-2005, 08:23 AM

I don't really like the flop call - given the number of players left to act behind you. Having it get check-raised would suck. If the remaining players are loose/passive enough I suppose it's not horrible.

River - You've got 2 players left to act after you and they've both played passive the whole hand. If the river helped BB/UTG they probably would've lead out after the turn got checked through. Raise the river for value. I think you would've surely raised had you known that BB was going to fold. You've gained nothing if one of BB/UTG folds - you lose a BB if they both fold - you might even have lost BBs if they both call because they might have cold-called your raise. MP is going to call your raise. Put it in and give BB/UTG a chance to call 2-cold (or, if you're really lucky one of them will be FPS-ing it up and 3-bet you with 2-pair or a set).

sfer · #7 08-09-2005, 09:46 AM

I think the flop call is right on the border. The fact that the bet comes from your right hurts your implied odds a bit, and sometimes you'll get raised with the entire field behind you. But sometimes the game texture is passive enough where you can call there. Don't know if that's the case here, but being able to identify that is worthwhile.

I'm of the general opinion that river overcalls in small stakes online games is, in the words of bdk3clash, "teh suck," but this seems like a good spot for it.

W. Deranged · #8 08-09-2005, 10:15 AM

I think this definitely a spot for overcalls here. It is extremely unlikely that the 6 improved anyone else's hand enough that they'd be willing to cold-call two on the river in a smallish pot.

Since the turn was checked through, it is quite possible that MP2 is completely bluffing at this pot, possibly with a missed heart draw. This, I believe, is maybe more likely than an A or any real hand (why wouldn't he bet an A when checked to on the turn?). Hence, a raise is not even that likely to get paid off by the river better. The only place I think you can look for more bets is from the rest of the field. I honestly think the goal on this river is just to get 1 more BB from anywhere.

crunchy1 · #9 08-09-2005, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this definitely a spot for overcalls here. It is extremely unlikely that the 6 improved anyone else's hand enough that they'd be willing to cold-call two on the river in a smallish pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
So why do you think that they will even bother to call 1BB?

[ QUOTE ]
Since the turn was checked through, it is quite possible that MP2 is completely bluffing at this pot, possibly with a missed heart draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he leads the flop with this hand, I think he bets the turn too.

[ QUOTE ]
This, I believe, is maybe more likely than an A or any real hand (why wouldn't he bet an A when checked to on the turn?). Hence, a raise is not even that likely to get paid off by the river better. The only place I think you can look for more bets is from the rest of the field. I honestly think the goal on this river is just to get 1 more BB from anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
Some players will lead middle pair on the flop. The 6 gives him a reasonable chance to have hit 2-pair on the river with any number of hands from A6 to 46 that loose players would limp with PF. There are not too many players at 2/4 that are bet/folding the river like this into 4 players. They are typically either passive and will check/call or check/fold - or they are committing to showdown and will call one bet for a raise.

I don't understand why people are advocating this as a good spot to go for overcalls when we river the pure nuts? If any of those 3 opponents improved to a hand that would give us action - it seems that Hero is missing a lot of value by not raising.

W. Deranged · #10 08-09-2005, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this definitely a spot for overcalls here. It is extremely unlikely that the 6 improved anyone else's hand enough that they'd be willing to cold-call two on the river in a smallish pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
So why do you think that they will even bother to call 1BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because many SS players are donks who will call the river with very little for fear of being bluffed out of pots. Many will not adjust appropriately for hero's call. Weak 9s and even lesser pairs will overcall here reasonably often.

I simply think that very often if hero raises given his relative position everyone else will fold and the river better will dump his missed heart draw.

It's pretty close, obviously. My problem with raising the river is simply that, by doing so, you are basically limiting yourself to one customer, and a pretty speculative one at that. I'd rather take the slew of other, more speculative customers than just the one.