There's a third time for everything

[Yeti]

Tommy, I think you are great. Your posts are well-written and entertain me.

Regardless of that, this is a boring thread. And anyone trying to justify this play needs to pull their finger out of their ass.

[creedofhubris]

Tommy:

What sort of ROI are you looking for on those chips?

In a game where there are constant $200 preflop raises, you're going to have to take gambles now and again; you can't wait for aces.

I'm as nitty as they get in this forum and I would jump at the chance to put my 3K on the line here.

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm as nitty as they get in this forum and I would jump at the chance to put my 3K on the line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true, Tommy, he is. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Your post seems to indicate that you had no specific read that this guy was exceptionally strong; you just said you weren't calling without the nuts when a guy bet 3000 into a nothing pot. That's not good enough, and in terms of the info you provided, this is a spot where I'd be very inclined to make that type of call, which I also would absolutely hate to make in general.

In fact, I laid down KK pre-flop to one reraise in the Bellagio 25/50 game (I'd link the post, but I can't find it just now). In that hand, I opened UTG for 200 in a 10-handed game, got a caller, and then a very good player pushed about 6000 into the pot. I knew that the good player viewed me as very tight, and I figured he "knew" I had a big hand, just hoped I had KK, and pushed his AA. You could make the argument that he could be pushing there with any ace, thinking that someone so tight would fold everything but AA, but I disagree. I just don't think people are willing to bank on other people laying down Kings before the flop (riverboatking's awesome bluff with A4 a while back notwithstanding). This is even more true when you're dealing with a relative stranger.

[Andrew Fletcher]

That post by riverboatking literally changed my poker life.

[Jason Strasser]

Can i get a link?

[jkkkk]

Sick.

[mikech]

tommy, you gave us this description of the current conditions of your game:

[ QUOTE ]
kazZAM out of the gate and they're off and it's make it 200 call call call, flop comes check, check, bet 800, call 800, checkraise all in 3000 fold, call, shityougotme ... CHIPS!!

It didn't slow down much. It was that kind of line up.

[/ QUOTE ]
you gave us this description of your two opponents in the hand:

[ QUOTE ]
It was folded to one of the three main raisers. He made it $200. His stack was 4K. Folded to the button, who was also one of the raisers. He went all in for 3K.

[/ QUOTE ]
you gave us this read on the first raiser and his eventual action:

[ QUOTE ]
I looked at the guy who had made it $200, and it was sort of like he gave me one of these "If you call I'll call" look deals.

The 200 guy hemhawed and folded face up, QJ suited. He WAS going to call if I called!

[/ QUOTE ]

so, you've told us that these players are willing to checkraise all-in on bluffs, and potentially willing to call a preflop all-in with Q-high. why tell us these things, then make a fold that goes against what these reads would indicate? and WITHOUT telling us anything to the contrary that your radar picked up on this specific hand?

i would really like to read an explanation. your 72o thread was basically trolling, i'd like to think this one wasn't.

[Tommy Angelo]

[ QUOTE ]
i would really like to read an explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]

My brother Paul and I have our own lexicon, as so many subcultures do. One of our words is "splain." It's a shortened version of the word "explain."

"Let me splain myself."

We might say.

Or, "He's a real splainer."

Splain means to explain yourself above and beyond the expectations of and/or the obligation to the splainee.

An example would be, you’re sitting next to someone on the bus, and there’s no one else around, and you catch a nasty whiff of his flatulence, and he of course, being a sensitive sort, and paranoid, and full of judgment, of himself, and of your judgments of himself, sees that you noticed his bile behavior, so he launches into a three-part story about his recent surgery.

That’s a splainer.

Me, I’d just sit there and stink.

But since you asked, I’ll try to splain …

With rare exception, the opponents I have faced repeatedly for eight years in this player pool are brilliant men. Some of them are full-time poker players. Others are writers and doctors and CEO’s. Without exception, the regulars who you and others here might judge as being “poor players” are capable of sparkling excellence at poker in any given moment.

As to the player on this hand who raised all-in for 3K, if he had been the type of player who I thought would never move all-in there without aces, and then I folded, I would not have posted the hand. Without more the story, there would be no story.

What you and others seem to want is for me to say something that will satisfy you. Something after which you can think, “Okay, I think you made the right play.” Or, “Okay, I can see and understand the reason for what you did.” And if I can’t or don’t satisfy you, then I am guilty of an injustice. But that is your reality, and your judging, not mine. (And I don’t judge you for it.  )

I could have splained that he might have made that move with aces specifically because he might have thought that I might have limped UTG with KK. I could have splained that he might have made that move with aces figuring I’d fold, but that the other guy might go ahead and call. But I could not be sure enough of those types of things to justify my play in your eyes, and I knew that.
.
I could have splained about make-a-hand poker. That’s when if I get 72o every hand, I can’t win. I could have splained about make-a-bluff poker. That’s when if I get 72o every hand, I can’t lose. I could have splained that the biggest thing I have going for me in this player pool these days is that nobody fuckss with me. So for now, I’m better off with 72 every hand, not KK. How could I get that kind of respect from players like these? I could have splained that too, and somewhere inside that splaination would be that I think going endless hours without seeing felt has something to do with it.

[ QUOTE ]

tommy, you gave us this description of the current conditions of your game:

[ QUOTE ]
kazZAM out of the gate and they're off and it's make it 200 call call call, flop comes check, check, bet 800, call 800, checkraise all in 3000 fold, call, shityougotme ... CHIPS!!

It didn't slow down much. It was that kind of line up.

[/ QUOTE ]
you gave us this description of your two opponents in the hand:

[ QUOTE ]
It was folded to one of the three main raisers. He made it $200. His stack was 4K. Folded to the button, who was also one of the raisers. He went all in for 3K.

[/ QUOTE ]
you gave us this read on the first raiser and his eventual action:

[ QUOTE ]
I looked at the guy who had made it $200, and it was sort of like he gave me one of these "If you call I'll call" look deals.

The 200 guy hemhawed and folded face up, QJ suited. He WAS going to call if I called!

[/ QUOTE ]

so, you've told us that these players are willing to checkraise all-in on bluffs, and potentially willing to call a preflop all-in with Q-high. why tell us these things, then make a fold that goes against what these reads would indicate?

[/ QUOTE ]

You reviewed all the descriptions except the ones that splained the most: the ones of me. Still, I did not and do not expect or intend to justify my actions before the inquisition. I’ll plead guilty to anything, if it pleases the court. But before you take me to the gallows pole, I’m just curious … What is the charge?



Tommy

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
But before you take me to the gallows pole, I’m just curious … What is the charge?



Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy, as somebody who had put in 1,000s of hours at casinos before I every played online I can sympathize with your frustration at how this hand fails to translate onto a message board.

But I think that the charge is that there's nothing we can add to or learn from this post. We just don't have any reads whatsoever and you need a super-sick read to justify this laydown. Your play may not have been terrible given your specific dynamic with the players, but if you were playing online this would be an insta-call. Furthermore, even live this is a call more often than a fold.

I have been in a similar spot either after limping UTG or being in the blinds w/KK live numerous times and almost always instacalled/overpushed with far deeper stacks all around. I have yet to regret it-the pusher has always been a donkey and the original raiser has not had AA yet.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]

But I think that the charge is that there's nothing we can add to or learn from this post. We just don't have any reads whatsoever and you need a super-sick read to justify this laydown. Your play may not have been terrible given your specific dynamic with the players, but if you were playing online this would be an insta-call. Furthermore, even live this is a call more often than a fold.


[/ QUOTE ]


this is what i meant to say. Back to english class.