Can you lay down KK pre-flop in NL cash game?

[surfinillini]

the problem with Qs is it's hard enough to get the guy with AK to lay that down before the river, with 5 cards, QQ is prob a good fold preflop in many situations.

[Masquerade]

You seem very concerned about the amounts involved, constantly citing $350 here or being down $500 there. Pick an amount that doesnt concern you, $100 say. Divide by 5. Play a NL game where that would be the typical buy-in. You shouldnt be playing with $500 on the table unless losing $3K is no biggie to you.

[Sponger15SB]

I've folded it exactly one time....

tight player raises to 4bb, I (even tighter and nittier) reraise to 12bb with KK, Villian pushes for 170bbs and I have him covered.

[Ray Zee]

yes. about half the time in these spots.

as for it being 20 to 1. its probably around 75% or more depending on some of the factors.

"You seem very concerned about the amounts involved, constantly citing $350 here or being down $500 there. Pick an amount that doesnt concern you, $100 say. Divide by 5. Play a NL game where that would be the typical buy-in. You shouldnt be playing with $500 on the table unless losing $3K is no biggie to you"

It's not the $$ that's the issue--I wanted to show money in the pot for pot odds and stack sizes. I had 2-1 on the call the way it turned out. Obviously, much easier call if villain only has, ie, $100 more. Even if I know he has Aces, more than 4-1 is mathemetically correct.

This amount is higher than I play online, quality of players of course is much worse live at comparable limits.

I have quite the story to tell on this one. I was running good within hours of reading this post. So I had about 1k profit so far. My opponent only having around 450$ and had been running pretty poorly. He was a type of player that thought great laydowns made great poker players. So I conducted a little experiment. I was UTG with 9d 2s. I limped in after having raised basically every pot I enetered. My opponent who was OTB raised 50$. I remembered reading this post so I figured Id go for it. I raised another 250 to him. He thought for a long time and then in a scared child type of voice said "I hate folding this hand , but I know you have me." He then flipped his pocket Queens over. I just told him Good laydown mucked my cards, took his 50$, and knew I was in good shape. I busted him within that hour and made over 5 grand that session. One of my biggest days ever.

[lefty rosen]

It's way easier to see confidence live. Granted he could have QQ or JJ or even moronic AK over play, but generally it's bullets even a live donkey has enough sense to know how to play AA........... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[bernie]

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(BTW, I'm with others in the camp of not loving the limp-raise with KK)

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Maybe you could explain that then given the table texture he described. Remember, you're greatly expecting a raise behind your limp.

Go ahead.

b

[JJNJustin]

Laying down KK or QQ in no-limit is one laydown that is tough to make, yet to be successful in no-limit cash games you must be able to make this lay-down or else you will get busted a lot.

I dont have too many suggestion, as I havent had that much experience, but I always consider my opponent's stack size and how he plays before I decide to play KK or QQ against him. Different guys play AA differently- some love to slow play before the flop and some hate getting busted with them so they overplay. Watching your opponents will give you some idea. For example, if a player limps under the gun and then makes a big re-raise after you raise in a later position, it's almost a dead giveaway that he has AA. Or yet another example would be if someone raised and them someone else makes a massage raise, say double the bet. But it's more a function of watching the players and WHAT THEY DO WHEN THEY GET AA b4 the flop. Another strategy many players use is to make a small raise and then fold if re-raised all-in. For example a guy makes it $30, you raise to $60 and then he goes all-in. If you watch very closely against an amateur, you can usually pick-up if he has AA or not, but not-always. If you are doubtful you can always fold and just lose $60. However I hate this play. Another benefit, however, of this play is that your opponent may decide to slowplay and let you hang yourself. This gives you a chance to outflop him.

But I would say, if in doubt, and if outchipped severely, dont be afraid to fold. Sure you might accidently fold the best hand once in a while, but if your gut feeling is that your opponent has aces, you should listen to it.

-J

[Jimmy The Fish]

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Ten-handed it is 20-1 against villain having AA so without a Hellmuthian read, you have to call.

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somebody is going to have to explain the 20-1 against aces thing in this spot

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The odds that any player has any pocket pair is 17:1. The odds of someone specifically having AA is (17 x 13) = 221:1. Divide that by ten players at a full-ring table, and the odds that one specific individual has AA is 22.1:1.

(Actually, you'd probably be more correct to divide by nine, since you know that YOU don't have AA. In that case, the odds would be 24.5:1.)