O8 hand

[mat]

i am totally lost i only played this hand becuase it was shorthanded. this seemed like a situation where a lot of cards can give me a hand but not a nut hand. of course my play makes no sense betting and then folding but i thought betting was a mistake still trying to tone it down so used to betting flops in other pot limit games


Party Poker 2/4 Omaha/8 (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, Hero folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB calls $0.75 (All-In).

Turn: (5.18 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (5.18 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: 5.18 BB

[mat]

a real problem for me so far is knowing what peoples raises mean. what to put then on

[beset7]

I'm a kind of "learn by experience" low-limit O8 player, so Buzz or someone who understand the math of the game better can correct me, but, in a 2/4 6-handed game with four cards to a wheel I would want to see the turn.

That being said, I would not have played the starting hand. But, if I'd accidently clicked call and saw that flop I would call the raises with the open-ender.

[chaos]

Preflop I would fold.

You are out of position. You have a poor hand. For low your 23 is trailing anyone with A2 or A3, and you do not have any counterfeit protection. For high your suited King wii occasionally give you a second nut flush draw. Plus having a third club reduces you flush making chances.

Your 9 is one of the worst cards you can hold. Your hand would be improved if you could replace the 9 with any other card in the deck!

If you flop the Ace of clubs, another club and a 4 through 8 you would have nut high and nut low draws. But those miracle flops do not happen often enough.

Heads up, you are an underdog to anyone with an Ace and any other low card.

[BradleyT]

That hand is dogshit.

What's your party name? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz or someone who understand the math of the game better can correct me, but, in a 2/4 6-handed game with four cards to a wheel I would want to see the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not so much the math of the game that's involved here.

Instead, Hero has somehow managed to get himself outplayed here.

However, taken in isolation, Hero's play does not seem abysmal - maybe not good, but not as bad as abysmal. Yes, the hand is not a very good starting hand in a six-handed game, especially from UTG. And yes, Hero missed the flop. But both blinds have already checked and it's hard to fault Hero for betting on the second round. And yes, Hero folded to a check-raise I would have called or re-raised, but from the standpoint of favorable odds, the fold might be more reasonable, and with the Button still to act is the safest play.

Did SB fully expect Hero to bet? If so, was that because Hero had previously been playing too aggressively and too predictably?

Did SB expect Hero to fold to the check-raise? If so, was that because Hero had previously been playing too weakly?

Does SB or Button have A2XX or A3XX? Did Button expect the raise from SB? Would Button still have re-raised if Hero had called SB's raise? Would Button have folded if Hero re-raised?

It's difficult to estimate the answers to these questions without knowing the history of the session.

The math itself is very easy here. Assuming no knowledge of SB's holding the odds against catching an ace on the turn are 41 to 4, or roughly 10 to 1 against.

Let's assume SB, holding A3XX, suspects Hero would have overly-aggressivley raised with A2XX, therefore doesn't have A2XX, and is expected to try to steal one. In that case, the odds against Hero catching an ace on the turn are almost 13 to 1. On the other hand, if SB doesn't have an ace, the odds against Hero catching an ace on the turn are in the neighborhood of 9 to 1.

Note that 10 to 1, the easiest estimate, is a middle estimate, in-between the extremes.

Also note that the ace of diamonds might well only be good for half the pot, since it will also enable a flush. Also note that SB or Button might also have 23XX. Also note that if a favorable ace appears on the turn but the board pairs or flushes on the river, or if a deuce or trey appears on the river, Hero may be getting less than half of the pot.

Even so, Hero is getting eight to one pot odds (and probably implied pot odds of at least fourteen to one) to call the raise. Thus with implied pot odds better than the odds against catching an ace on the turn, I'd tend to call the check-raise, planning to fold if I didn't catch an ace on the turn.

But considering the strong chance of getting less than the whole pot, even if Hero does catch an ace on the turn, it's a close odds decision and not a good spot to be. From the standpoint of playing with the odds, the fold seems neither a particularly bad play nor a particularly good play. From the standpoint of table image, in my humble opinion, the fold looks "weak" and invites future bluffs.

We all get in those spots from time to time. Sometimes we set our selves up to get in these spots while other times we don't. Hard to tell which applies to Hero in the situation. (A tight Omaha-8 player might opine that Hero should not have played the hand in the first place, and then shouldn't have bet the flop in the second place. An aggressive Omaha-8 player might opine that Hero should either have folded the hand or raised before the flop.) Different styles work in this game, but a hodgepodge mixture of styles may not be as effective as a particular style, even though I think you want to often shift gears once you get the basic tight/aggressive style down pat.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[BradleyT]

From his other posts it's my understanding he's still learning the game, that's why he shouldn't have been in the pot until he gets a feel for how to A) play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] B) play shorthanded C) play marginal hands out of position.

[mat]

actually i have played this game for only a few days now and it is true that i am horrible but i will improve very quickly just like every other game i have played. if you want my party name thats fine with me but youll have to agree to mentor me hell ill even play heads up with you whatever it takes i just want to ger better. well maybe not heads up as you can imagine my bankroll is kind of at a low point right now.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
From his other posts it's my understanding he's still learning the game, that's why he shouldn't have been in the pot until he gets a feel for how to A) play B) play shorthanded C) play marginal hands out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bradley - Good advice, I think. I'd add that maybe he shouldn't be in that six handed game yet either.

Buzz