Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

[JackWhite]

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Vince Carter and Lebron James are 6'6 and 6'8, respectively. I assume most people that tall could eventually train themselves into being able to dunk a basketball. One reason why you or I (I'm 6'0 feet tall) couldn't train for 10 years and dunk a basketball is because we're signifcantly shorter than the athletes you've mentioned -- although I don't doubt that after serious training, most people couldn't drastically improve their vertical leap.

In other words, I don't think Vince and LeBron were born with that skill -- I think it is a product of hard work, exercise, training, practice, etc.

I generally assume there's an equal distribution of 6'8 males who can dunk a basketball among races (although I have no proof) -- if I'm wrong, and there is some statistically significant difference, I'm sure we can come up with some non-genetic reasons as to why.

If the claim is that African Americans are generally taller than white people, I think Grey does a pretty good job explaining why that is.

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No, the argument is not that black people are taller than white people. I am not sure where to go with this arugment If you saying that athletic ability is all a product of hard work and not biology.

Since you are saying that hard work is main factor in determining who becomes a great athlete, what is your explaination for the previous stat I mentioned: 64 out of 64 NFL starting cornerbacks are black. Do white players simply not work hard enough? Are you saying that there simply wasn't one white guy in the entire country who worked hard at being a good CB?

I have a hard time believing that an educated person believes that the reason that some people can jump 4 feet off the ground is simply because they practiced a lot. There are certain athletic abilities that you are born with, and cannot be improved by a significant amount. Are you aware of one person who cound't jump a lick when they were 16, then they practiced for a few years and as a result, they could do windmill dunks?

[DVaut1]

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No, the argument is not that black people are taller than white people. I am not sure where to go with this arugment If you saying that athletic ability is all a product of hard work and not biology.

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I'm not saying that athletic ability isn't the product of biology; just that, I've seen no biological evidence to suggest that black people have more athletic ability than do whites, short of exactly what Grey cited -- people from historically warm weather climates have longer appendages and are built less stoutly to survive warmer temperatures, whereas people from colder climates developed shorter, stockier bodiers to survive cold weather.

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Since you are saying that hard work is main factor in determining who becomes a great athlete, what is your explaination for the previous stat I mentioned: 64 out of 64 NFL starting cornerbacks are black. Do white players simply not work hard enough?

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No. As Grey mentioned, there could be many reasons.

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Are you saying that there simply wasn't one white guy in the entire country who worked hard at being a good CB?

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I'm sure there are plenty of white CBs who worked hard at being good. So no, I'm not saying that.

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I have a hard time believing that an educated person believes that the reason that some people can jump 4 feet off the ground is simply because they practiced a lot.

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Why do you have a hard time believing that?

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There are certain athletic abilities that you are born with, and cannot be improved by a significant amount. Are you aware of one person who cound't jump a lick when they were 16, then they practiced for a few years and as a result, they could do windmill dunks?

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I'm not aware of anyone who can do a windmill dunk that isn't playing basketball at a high level. So to answer your question, I don't know anyone who DOES jump extremely high, plays basketball regularly, and CAN do a windmill dunk -- except for professionals.

I'm not a personal trainer, but I'm somewhat certain that the vertical leap is a skill that can improved with training.

[JackWhite]

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I have a hard time believing that an educated person believes that the reason that some people can jump 4 feet off the ground is simply because they practiced a lot.



Why do you have a hard time believing that?

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Because I have never heard of anybody who couldn't jump a lick, then through practicing, starting jumping 4 feet off the ground.



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Since you are saying that hard work is main factor in determining who becomes a great athlete, what is your explaination for the previous stat I mentioned: 64 out of 64 NFL starting cornerbacks are black. Do white players simply not work hard enough?



No. As Grey mentioned, there could be many reasons

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Please give me some of these reasons. NFL and major college football coaches keep their jobs by winning. They obviously want the best players on the field. The reason that all major college and NFL cornerbacks are black is because the coaches think they are the best. I am guessing you agree that these coaches don't discriminate against white cornerbacks. So if it not discrimination, I would like a few of these reasons why there are no white cornerbacks..not to mention no NFL team has a starting white tailback. In fact, the last good white tailback I can remember was John Riggins, and that was about 20 years ago.

So combine cornerbacks and starting tailbacks in the NFL. That is around 100 guys. If I am not mistaken, they are all black. I would like to hear the non-biology explaination for that.

[DVaut1]

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So combine cornerbacks and starting tailbacks in the NFL. That is around 100 guys. If I am not mistaken, they are all black. I would like to hear the non-biology explaination for that.

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Sure:

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But that is not enough to explain the prominence of dark-skinned athletes in the U.S. Culture is the main cause there. Again, notice how many European whites are coming over here to play basketball (and all from poor countries). If playing sports professionally weren't such a long-odds gamble you'd see a lot more whites in the pros. There are whites out there in board rooms and running family businesses who could have been NBA all-stars if they'd dedicated their lives to it from a young age, like many blacks in America do. Look at Tiger Woods. You think he's genetically superior to every other person on earth when it comes to golf? No way. He was trained rigorously from a very, very young age to play golf. The same happens for more blacks in America than whites- their place in society gives them more drive to achieve athletic success.

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[JackWhite]

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But that is not enough to explain the prominence of dark-skinned athletes in the U.S. Culture is the main cause there. Again, notice how many European whites are coming over here to play basketball (and all from poor countries). If playing sports professionally weren't such a long-odds gamble you'd see a lot more whites in the pros. There are whites out there in board rooms and running family businesses who could have been NBA all-stars if they'd dedicated their lives to it from a young age, like many blacks in America do. Look at Tiger Woods. You think he's genetically superior to every other person on earth when it comes to golf? No way. He was trained rigorously from a very, very young age to play golf. The same happens for more blacks in America than whites- their place in society gives them more drive to achieve athletic success.

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Yes, the Bill Gates could have been an NBA star if he had dedicated himself to it explaination. You really believe that a lot of corporate executives could play in the NBA if they worked at it?

As I pointed out in a previous response, there are places in this country where football is king. If you are good at football you are a God. The kids in those places (overwhelmingly white communities) work year around at football. They have as much desire to play in the NFL as anybody can have, yet they don't make it. Why not, if all it takes is desire and work?

[DVaut1]

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Yes, the Bill Gates could have been an NBA star if he had dedicated himself to it explaination. You really believe that a lot of corporate executives could play in the NBA if they worked at it?

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Not necessarily corporate executives; and I suppose it's a cute way to frame it (choosing the notoriously scrawny/nerdy looking Gates as an example of your typical executive).

But sure, there are, of course, some people in all walks of life who could have been professional athletes had they dedicated themselves. Basketball is a bit of an outlier, as most people of average height are at a great disadvantage to those who are taller.

What Grey is arguing (and I agree with) is that young black people have a stronger impetus to dedicate themselves to athletics than do white people -- again, for reasons that I think are many and varied.

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As I pointed out in a previous response, there are places in this country where football is king. If you are good at football you are a God. The kids in those places (overwhelmingly white communities) work year around at football. They have as much desire to play in the NFL as anybody can have, yet they don't make it. Why not, if all it takes is desire and work?

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If Friday Night Lights (the book, not the movie) is any indication, top notch college programs will tend to shy away from recruiting kids from the 'Football is God' type communities because they feel those kids' potential have been fully-tapped; as there is so much focus on football, and the coaching standards are inevitably higher, many college coaches feel those kids are already playing at their highest possible level and have nothing more to offer than what they're currently displaying.

Also, an intense community focus on football doesn't necessarily mean the kids are playing, practicing, or training any harder than kids where high school football isn't at the heart of the community.

Secondly, Friday Night Lights also detailed (quite clearly, in my mind) that urban areas in Texas (downtown Dallas, for instance) are quite full of school districts that have large minority (in many cases, overwhelming minority) populations that have the same kind of intense focus on high school football as the more rural communities of Texas do (like Odessa).

[JackWhite]

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If Friday Night Lights (the book, not the movie) is any indication, top notch college programs will tend to shy away from recruiting kids from the 'Football is God' type communities because they feel those kids' potential has been fully-tapped; as there is so much focus on football, and the coaching standards are inevitably higher, many college coaches feel those kids are already playing at their highest possible level and have nothing more to offer than what they're currently displaying.

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Exactly. You are correct. The reason college coaches shy away from these kids is because they are as good as they are ever going to be at this stage. Why? Because they generally lack overall atheltic ability. They are good now because of hard work, and that can only take you so far. To use a sports term, they have reached their "ceiling."
That is why the coaches go to black areas and find kids who haven't reached their ceiling yet.

This whole argument reminds me of a funny scene from the movie "Airplane." When Ted Striker is telling the story of his days in the Peace Corps in Africa, he mentions how he taught the natives to play basketball. Then they show these guys doing acrobatic dunks etc... and Striker credits this to "advanced American teaching techniques." If you and Grey are correct, Striker was correct. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[NobodysFreak]

I just want to jump in here about the vertical leap thing. I have a friend who's 5 feet 9 inches and can dunk a basketball. The proportion of your arm lenghts (a little less than half half your body height for the average person) in addition to your body height give taller people a significant advantage in being able to dunk a basketball. However, there is much to be said about the proportion of your vertical leap to your body height. A person who's six feet six inches tall has a much easier time with dunking a basketball but their legs don't need to be as proportionally strong to acheive this feat.

Conclusion: Just raise the damn hoop to 12 feet so you have to practice things like shooting which requires much more training