what to do with top two?

[DiamondDave]

20/40 at Bay 101. No one was short-stacked.

Everyone passed to MP, who limped three from the button. This guy had been open-raising with hands like KJo and QTo in that spot, but had been limping with much less (such as Q4s and J9o). I had been at the table for a few hours, and I had not seen him limp-reraise or slowplay a big hand before the flop.

Everyone else folded to me on the button. SB was a strong, tricky player. BB was a prop who hadn't been at the table long. I raised with Ks9s. SB folded, BB called, MP called.

Three of us saw a flop of Kh8c8d. Both players checked, and I bet. BB called, MP folded.

I did not like my hand. My plan was to check behind on the turn and probably call on the river.

The turn card was the 9 of diamonds, giving me top two pair. BB checked.

Time for a change of plans?

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I raised with Ks9s. BB called...
.
Both players checked, and I bet. BB called...
.
I did not like my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I see your problem. You don't like your hand when you have top pair and opponents call your bets. I, however, love those situations.

[King_J]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raised with Ks9s. BB called...
.
Both players checked, and I bet. BB called...
.
I did not like my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I see your problem. You don't like your hand when you have top pair and opponents call your bets. I, however, love those situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess he wonders what the heck bb could have been calling with. I wouldn´t feel all that comfortable either with K9 on a K88 board.

On a board lets say K65 its a completely other sitaution where I wouldn´t bother all that much if I get called or if I just took down the pot. And, btw, I think you should bet the turn...

I also think a check on turn would have been great if it was a brick.

[J_V]

It's just a differents in the limits people play. At 4-8 or 20-40, those calls don't mean much. At the higher limits, they do. Just depends on your perspective.

You are right though. I would be concerned too.

[cero_z]

Hi Dynasty,
Despite your smugness, this is not an auto-bet, and not simply for the reason that you may not be ahead. You also may not get called by a weaker hand, unless you check the turn, in which case you probably will. The caller is a prop, who is therefore probably a mediocre to decent player, who also probably plays fairly tight. Check behind on the turn, call or bet on the river.

[andyfox]

Poster said he did not like his hand. I take that to mean he felt there was a good chance he was behind. I don't think he meant that he was afraid he might not get called by a weaker hand. Now if he had K-8, and the flop was K-8-8, and he said he didn't like his hand when he was called, that would be another story.

I see a bit of sarcasm in Dynasty's post, not smugness.

[karlson]

Come on Dynasty, this isn't a 3-6 game where he's being called with QJ because there's a backdoor straight draw.

Nevertheless, I think you have to bet. It seems that he's about equally likely to have a K as an 8, and most players will put in 3 more BB with a K. Also, even if he did call the flop with the sole plan of bluffing the river after you checked the turn, the 9 is a card that could have easily given him a draw, so he might try to semi-bluff check-raise on the turn instead.

It'll be slightly worse than checking if he has 77-22 and now folds, but would have put in a bet on the river. Nevertheless, really aggressive types might try to run you off QQ-TT in this spot. In short, give him a chance to make an expensive bluff when it's probably close to 50-50 if he is checkraising for value.

[DiamondDave]

I thought it was too wimpy to check behind on the turn, so I bet. He check-raised me, and I called him down. He had an eight (and rivered a superfluous diamond flush).

There were no obvious draws on the flop. The only hands I see my opponent calling with on the flop are a king, an eight, or a pocket pair. (Ace-high was a possibility, but I thought it was a fairly remote one.) Given my opponent's range of possible/probable holdings, there were few river cards that could produce a lead change, so giving a free card that could cost me the pot wasn't much of a concern. Add in the possiblity of a inducing a bluff or a loose call by pocket deuces on the river, and checking the turn looks pretty good.

There were basically two possibilities when I bet the turn -- he's ahead and can extract three late-round bets (assuming I call down and don't draw out), or I'm ahead and can extract two late-round bets (assuming he neither overplays his hand nor draws out). Both possibilities looked about equally likely (since I could see two eights and two kings), but I bet anyway. Seems silly, now that I think about it.

Comments welcome.

[karlson]

I don't have all that much of a problem with checking, but I think you're completely underestimating how often he will checkraise the turn with a worse hand.

[HiatusOver]

Before I start my rant, I would like to thank you Dynasty for your hospitality in Vegas. You were a great host and it was great meeting you. Sorry I didnt thank you earlier but I have barely been on the forums at all lately...Ok here we go...

Why such a smug 1-liner response here? Isn't that what Clark was saying should be avoided in this forum? Do you think this post has no merit? There is definitely something to this guys post and it obviously isnt as cut and dry as "me have top pair, me bet". What hand do you put the prop on? Since I saw you quoting SCSFAP earlier, what about HPFAP when they talk about checking AA behind in this same type of situation on the turn? How about this line...check the turn, bet if checked to on the river or raise a river bet. I think this could be the best line there is here. You still get the money from a single King, but you loose 1 less bet to an 8 if the 8 is scared to 3-bet...you could also safely fold to a river 3-bet. I really think this hand is player dependent and when I "prop" calls my bet here on a drawless board I am worried too...Also, I am certainly not worried about giving a free card to a showdown hand which might fold if I follow through on the turn but will pay off the river.