Brand Spankin' New Glock 19

Type of Crime-----------% higher in restrictive CC permit states

1. robbery.................105%
2. Murder...................86%
3. Assault..................82%
4. Violent Crime.........81%
5. Auto Theft.............60%
6. Rape.....................25%

source: Cramer C and Kopel D. Shall Issue: the new wave of Concealed Carry Permit Laws. 1994

next question? [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below the national average, and remains below this average to this day.

-The new wave of CC Permit Laws. 1994

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
You must be horrified to set foot outside your house. Who knows what bad bad criminal might have a gun and be looking to use it. Or, on the off chance that you run into someone with a concealed weapon's permit, who's carrying a concealed weapon, they might lose their mind and shoot you or someone you love.

The guns are out there. The threat is real. How much danger do people who carry legally actually add to this threat? I wonder what the percentage is of people illegally carrying guns vs the people legally carrying guns, in public.

I wonder who's more likely to shoot you.



[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be concerned that law abiding gun owner shoots me, I'm concerned that they will cause a non violent situation escalate to a violent one regarding a criminal.

"Who is more likely to shoot me?" isn't the question. The question is "Is a criminal more likely to shoot me if a person with a concealed weapon give him a reason to shoot me?" The answer to that question is yes.

I know you already said that you wouldn't take the law into your own hands, but who knows what some of the other people will do. I'd prefer not having to worry about it.

I assume you were being sarcastic when you asked me if I'm horrified to step foot outside of my house with people carrying concealed weapons. Obviously not, but I know I'm not any safer. That's all that really matters.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
Type of Crime-----------% higher in restrictive CC permit states

1. robbery.................105%
2. Murder...................86%
3. Assault..................82%
4. Violent Crime.........81%
5. Auto Theft.............60%
6. Rape.....................25%

source: Cramer C and Kopel D. Shall Issue: the new wave of Concealed Carry Permit Laws. 1994

next question? [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

correlation = causation! Yay!

This data doesn't show anything. For instance, I think it's likely that states where it's harder to get a CCW also have more urban poverty.

What would be more interesting is the change in crime rates when a state changes its CCW requirments. I think I remember seeing some numbers from...Florida? It's been awhile. (edit - heh. I saw this in your second post. The numbers you have there still don't show anything, but an analysis might.)

Also, if anyone's curious about per-state CCW requirments (or other CCW information) www.packing.org is a good place to start.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below the national average, and remains below this average to this day.

-The new wave of CC Permit Laws. 1994

[/ QUOTE ]

All you are doing is showing that if you look in the right place you can find biased statistics to support either side.

Congratulations.

I guess that means we just need to use are common sense to decide what is right, and common sense says that people shouldn't be walking around carrying guns like it's the wild west.

[ QUOTE ]
correlation = causation! Yay!

This data doesn't show anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're absolutely right. This is why I didn't go digging for data and start spouting off numbers. There's no solid proof either way.

Oh, and yeah, djj?

I was being sarcastic [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

You're not any safer when I'm allowed to carry a concealed handgun. But I don't know if you're any less safer. I'm inclined to believe that I'm safer when I'm carrying my handgun than when I'm not. (All these statements about me carrying need to be post-dated... I don't have a permit yet, and thus I don't carry. I'll let ya know if my feelings change.)

And yeah, packing.org is a great site. I found it was also very useful to dig up the actual statues from Texas, because I don't like relying on other people's interpretations
thereof, for something like this.

Edit:

[ QUOTE ]
I guess that means we just need to use are common sense to decide what is right, and common sense says that people shouldn't be walking around carrying guns like it's the wild west.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the last time... the bad guys have guns. You want them to be the only ones.

That doesn't make sense.

There's something like 200,000 people in Texas with concealed carry permits. How many people are there carrying guns illegally in a state with a population of 22.5 million?

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]

You're not any safer when I'm allowed to carry a concealed handgun. But I don't know if you're any less safer. I'm inclined to believe that I'm safer when I'm carrying my handgun than when I'm not. (All these statements about me carrying need to be post-dated... I don't have a permit yet, and thus I don't carry. I'll let ya know if my feelings change.)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the problems I have with the law. I believe that as a non gun carrier I am definitely more unsafe with people carrying concealed weapons. This is because the number of illegal carriers won't change. More guns out in public means more guns that could possibly harm me even if they are in the hands of a legal carrier. A legal carrier has no obligation to protect me from criminals and would probably be more harm than good if they tried.

I think we are in agreement on this and this adds up to me being more unsafe as a result of this law. Even is we assume that legal carriers are safer, which I don't agree with, everyone else is not and this is wrong.

I shouldn't have to sacrafice a portion of my safety to boost your perception of your own safety just because I don't want to carry a gun.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
There's something like 200,000 people in Texas with concealed carry permits. How many people are there carrying guns illegally in a state with a population of 22.5 million?



[/ QUOTE ]

That good and fine for those 200,000 people if they actually are safer, but it doesn't help me. That's just 200,000 more guns that could possibly kill me.

And this post just got moved to a totally dead forum [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Sigh.

So much for more input. Ah well.

Its been fun [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
I think we are in agreement on this and this adds up to me being more unsafe as a result of this law. Even is we assume that legal carriers are safer, which I don't agree with, everyone else is not and this is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

People driving cars makes you unsafer too, and by a lot more than concealed carries.