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Old 09-17-2005, 10:28 AM
IMTheWalrus8 IMTheWalrus8 is offline
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Default Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

I have been concentrating on my MTT play in the past few months, and gotten much more aggressive when I get some chips; I'll steal blinds with a wide range of hands from the CO, button and SB, and put some big bets in postflop with position and little else. This requires a lot of finesse, but I am enjoying playing this way, but have been at the same level in my BR since making four FTs in the space of a month in June.

I think I have improved quite a bit, but this lull in the BR is getting a little tiresome.

I think the two hands below are representative, and I'd love to get some feedback.

Last night's $10 Rebuy $25K on Stars.

Third hour. I've recently been moved and have only played four hands at the table. Average stack is @ 32000, there are about 250 players left, 99 get paid, and blinds have just increased to 600/1200, 75 ante = 2475 initial pot size.

My thinking is that it is time for me to start getting some chips, and I very much want to get aggressive at this table. I have found that being aggressive when you first get to a table often gives you a nice advantage in subsequent hands.

I get 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the CO with 1 limper in front of me.

I do not normally limp in with this hand, but will randomly play it in late position. So I called, aware that I'm taking a chance. Button calls, SB folds, BB checks. Four to the flop.

Flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB and limper check. There is 6075 in the pot. I had seen the limper play one pot and take it down on the flop, so really didn't have a read on anyone. With t31,826 left, I think it's worth taking a shot at the pot. If anyone calls or raises I'm done with it, unless possibly a club comes on the turn.

So I bet 5,000. Button folds, BB goes all-in for 6961 more, and the limper folds. Having been caught, I fold.

Button makes a comment about my steal attempt, so everyone knows I just bluffed, in case they weren't paying attention.

Very next hand I get A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] with 26,826 left.

UG limps, folded to me, and I raise to 4,800. Folded to UG, who pushes all-in for 12,326 more.

One of the things I like about playing aggressive is that other players will try to push back at you with a wide range of hands, so when you do have a good hand, it pays off.

With no read other than my table image, the time in the tournament, my stack size, and the fact that only four hands are way ahead of me, I call. UG shows A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], hits a 7 on the flop, and I'm crippled.

Thoughts? Is the risk/reward there for the first hand, both preflop and postflop? And regardless, doesn't the aggression set up the second hand nicely anyway?
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2005, 10:48 AM
Bigdaddydvo Bigdaddydvo is offline
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Default Re: Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

Bet half the pot on the first hand if you want to take a shot at it...you overbet and lost more than you had to. By betting half the pot it needs to work 1 out of 3 times to break even...

2nd hand is straight bad beat...most people on this forum will see it as that and nothing more. Be happy getting your money in is as a 3:1 favorite.
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Old 09-17-2005, 11:19 AM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

I am trying to get more aggressive with my game, so take this at face value...a question, not a criticism.

Your stack is right around average and youre out of the rebuy period. Your M is getting low but not critical. That seems like the worst time to make moves that are going to cost you 2-3 M and put you in a position where your under real pressure to make moves so they become even more obvious?

Also, I'm not sure that the move against you had much to do with your getting caught the hand before. He's on a lower M than you and is UTG so hes got blinds coming up immediately. He's probably going to play strongly against 1 unknown opponent as often as one that he knows is capable of stealing.
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  #4  
Old 09-17-2005, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

Last play is fine.. anytime you're a 75:25 favorite you gotta be happy.. of course along with skill, to win a big tournament it takes a little luck and a little avoidance of luck..

First play you could bet less.. losing the minimum is sometimes as important as winning the maximum.. even 2,500 bet is enough to get information, and nobody would be chasing any draws since there aren't any.. so if they call or raise you know they have 1st or 2nd pair.
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  #5  
Old 09-17-2005, 11:52 AM
TheJackal TheJackal is offline
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Default Re: Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

First hand - I'd bet less, like half the pot, which does effectively the same thing since you have to fold if you get raised.

Second hand - Results, you played it fine. I was playing a 10 rebuy the other day deep in the tournament (30 or so people left), and premier moved in after folded to him in the cutoff, I moved in the sb with AQ. He flipped over Q8 of hearts, the flop came all diamonds, I had the ace of diamonds. He was dead to two outs, and he hit one on the turn and the other one on the river. Did I do something wrong because I lost the hand?
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  #6  
Old 09-17-2005, 01:07 PM
IMTheWalrus8 IMTheWalrus8 is offline
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Default Re: Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

[ QUOTE ]
Your stack is right around average and youre out of the rebuy period. Your M is getting low but not critical. That seems like the worst time to make moves that are going to cost you 2-3 M and put you in a position where your under real pressure to make moves so they become even more obvious?

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought I would get more comments like this. I just worked out and realized that posting the AQs hand is results-oriented thinking, which is what happens to me when I'm running a little bad.

But whether or not the flop bet here is worth it is a good question. I am still of the opinion that this play was worth it, as I think it's time to get some chips and hopefully get control of the table. The limp is what I'm not so sure about, particularly with only one limper in front of me.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I'm not sure that the move against you had much to do with your getting caught the hand before. He's on a lower M than you and is UTG so hes got blinds coming up immediately. He's probably going to play strongly against 1 unknown opponent as often as one that he knows is capable of stealing.

[/ QUOTE ] UG said after the hand that he thought I was stealing again, and it seemed like he wouldn't have called my raise if the previous hand hadn't happened. But that ended up being a great result preflop. This is why I convinced myself to post the AQs hand, because I think I would have taken it down preflop without the bluff in the previous hand.
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  #7  
Old 09-17-2005, 01:21 PM
IMTheWalrus8 IMTheWalrus8 is offline
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Default Re: Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

[ QUOTE ]
Bet half the pot on the first hand if you want to take a shot at it...you overbet and lost more than you had to. By betting half the pot it needs to work 1 out of 3 times to break even...


[/ QUOTE ]
Two things about this - 1. I'm not convinced I don't take this down enough to make the bet worth it - it seemed like a tight table, though making that assumption after 4 hands may be way too soon, and 2. I think there is obvious value in winning the bet, but also some value in getting caught. Villain in the 2nd hand said he thought I was stealing again, which ended up crippling me, but that increases the value of this raise, right? If I had made the bet you recommended and BB went all-in, it wouldn't necessarily have looked like I was bluffing. Part of the reason I liked the size of the bet is that the BB, who was the short stack in the hand, had to make a decision for his whole stack. He may have called a smaller bet, but this put him on a decision for his entire stack.

I will often bet 1/2 the pot in this situation, but against three opponents I think the bigger bet is stronger. But maybe this is something I should consider changing.

[ QUOTE ]

2nd hand is straight bad beat...most people on this forum will see it as that and nothing more. Be happy getting your money in is as a 3:1 favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah sorry about that.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2005, 06:13 PM
rmgustaf rmgustaf is offline
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Default Re: Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

I think the value of the second hand, with the AQ, is that everyone probably thought you were either trying to bluff again or that you were slightly on tilt. You got the bad beat, but you played the hand right, I think.

The first hand bet of $5000 was probably high... half the pot would have seemed less desperate (to push everyone off), but who knows? Without any table credibility, it would have been hard to push people off regardless. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2005, 06:38 PM
bruce bruce is offline
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Default Re: Two hands that crippled me in Stars 25K

Hand 1: Raise BTF or fold. Don't play garbage like that with the button behind you yet to act.

Hand 2: Bad beat. I doubt hand 1 had anything to do with hand 2.

Bruce
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