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#31
12-09-2005, 02:13 PM
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Re: empire 55r
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I really don't think you can flat call here because you're giving up way too many chips when someone else raises behind you, and you have two players left to act [/ QUOTE ] there aren't that many made hands that SB is going to check twice. i think he needs to have K9/99/KK/22 to take that line with something strong. similarly i thought MP3 was pretty much giving up on the hand by checking behind on a coordinated flop. [/ QUOTE ] If this line is correct, wouldn't a push be better than a call?? I'm not necessarily saying you should fold (although I did say that I would probably fold), but I think if you're going to put any more chips into this pot, it should really be all of them. There are a lot of river cards that look pretty bad for your hand, and I'd hate to get outplayed on the river for this many chips. Also, you left out part of my paragraph on that quote, which says I wouldn't mind pushing there either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm a big fan of putting the tough decisions on your opponent. I think calling here puts the tough decisions on you (either because you get popped on the turn, or because of the 15ish river cards you're not going to want to see). I'd like your line a lot better if you were confident you'd be HU in position on the river, but without some read that isn't indicated in this post, I really don't think you can reasonably expect that. -Rizen Shameless plug for my poker blog: http://rizenpoker.blogspot.com 
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#32
12-09-2005, 02:16 PM
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Re: empire 55r
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] FWIW I also don't hate a push PF [/ QUOTE ] ugh... push 11k to win 1700? it's going to fold out TT and leave me up against only bigger pairs and AK. i may as well have 55 to make that play. i think about 8k is my upper limit for a pushing stack. [/ QUOTE ] Not advocating it, but I don't hate it either. Adding 15% to your stack is never a bad thing, and while I can't speak for this particular tournament, I've been called by less than TT there because everyone wants to think you have AK when you push like that. I do think calling is the superior play here given your stack, but I don't hate pushing either. -Rizen Shameless plug for my poker blog: http://rizenpoker.blogspot.com
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#33
12-09-2005, 02:18 PM
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Re: empire 55r
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm with Sam T. somewhat in that I'm almost more scared on this flop that there was no cont bet or bet period on that flop. I'm almost more scared by the lack of action on this flop than I would be by a bet. [/ QUOTE ] really? how often do you cbet air in a 4way pot with a coordinated flop? i usually play those honest: bet if i connected, check otherwise. and if i had AK or KK, i bet every time because i don't want to give free gutshots + flush draws everywhere. [/ QUOTE ] Point taken, I have to agree with you here. Although I think if this is correct, it's an arguement for betting the flop. -Rizen Shameless plug for my poker blog: http://rizenpoker.blogspot.com
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#34
12-09-2005, 02:18 PM
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Re: empire 55r
it's checked through on the river (i hesistated before even posting that as a seperate decision point). pfr has 88, MP3 has TT, and SB has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a missed river c/r.
after thinking more about it, i agree that the turn should have been a fold. there are a million things that can go wrong, including getting bluffed off the best hand somewhere along the way. thanks for comments everyone. comments on all streets still welcome.
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#36
12-09-2005, 04:16 PM
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Re: empire 55r JJ facing raise
[ QUOTE ]
Four-handed I'm checking behind here. The lack of a c-bet makes me a little uneasy, as does the fact that I'm not last to act. I don't think a bet will take down the pot (too good a chance someone hit top pair or flush draw, and won't lay it down), and I do not want a CR from the initial raiser, or a raise from the cold-caller. Fit me for a skirt if you'd like. [/ QUOTE ] the biggest reason i wanted to check here was that he basically haven't heard from SB or MP3 yet. i think SB c/r's almost every good hand he can have here. i was happy to try to inch towards showdown. in retrospect, i think a bet would be ok, but i still like checking better. it lets me get away free if two people get involved either on this street or the turn.
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#37
12-09-2005, 04:20 PM
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Re: empire 55r
[ QUOTE ]
Because you have jacks, KJ is unlikely, and AK usually reraises, so only KQ is a likely hand here (actually since it's Empire, they're all unlikely). I don't terribly mind checking, but I bet specifically because I don't want to deal with that kind of turn. [/ QUOTE ] huh? i don't get that whole paragraph. [ QUOTE ] He either has QQ or TT, with a slight but significant chance of AK/air [/ QUOTE ] i think a missed c/r flush draw is possible. i also think that air is less likely than you do. AQ/AJ/AT will sometimes perk up and take a stab here.
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#38
12-09-2005, 04:42 PM
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Re: empire 55r
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I really don't think you can flat call here because you're giving up way too many chips when someone else raises behind you, and you have two players left to act [/ QUOTE ] there aren't that many made hands that SB is going to check twice. i think he needs to have K9/99/KK/22 to take that line with something strong. similarly i thought MP3 was pretty much giving up on the hand by checking behind on a coordinated flop. [/ QUOTE ] If this line is correct, wouldn't a push be better than a call?? I'm not necessarily saying you should fold (although I did say that I would probably fold), but I think if you're going to put any more chips into this pot, it should really be all of them. There are a lot of river cards that look pretty bad for your hand, and I'd hate to get outplayed on the river for this many chips. [/ QUOTE ] my thinking was that if i pushed, the odds were very low i was going to get called by a worse hand (thinking back on it, i think that the pfr might find a call with something like TT/98/88) so i would be basically semi-bluffing all-in with 2 outs, with 3 opp's still in the pot. i'd be basically turning my hand into 22. i figured since i didn't like a 22 push, a JJ push is wrong. i thought a call was good because it was likely i'd end up HU in position on the river, and i rated to have the best hand on the turn. in retrospect, i think a fold is probably best with so many people in the pot and the fact that i can't call a reasonable river bet, but i think it's pretty close. [ QUOTE ] Also, you left out part of my paragraph on that quote, which says I wouldn't mind pushing there either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] yeah, i'm a big fan of selective journalism. [ QUOTE ] I'm a big fan of putting the tough decisions on your opponent. I think calling here puts the tough decisions on you (either because you get popped on the turn, or because of the 15ish river cards you're not going to want to see). [/ QUOTE ] this is one of those poker cliches i hate... putting someone to a tough decision doesn't have any value in itself, and i think it's way overused as a rationale for one play over another. as much as i hate talking about it, i'm putting villain to a tougher decision by calling, imo. if i push, villain insta-calls his Kx hands, insta-folds his draws, and has to think precisely on AA, QQ, TT, 88, 9x. not very tough. it saves me from having to make a decision on the river, but i also don't see saving myself from that mental stress as a goal. if i call and the river is a brick, villain has to has a tough decision whether to continue a bluff, or else whether to bet vs c/r. if a draw gets there, he has similar decisions to make. when i bet out of position and get flat called, that's usually when i know i'm going to have a hard decision on the next street. [ QUOTE ] I'd like your line a lot better if you were confident you'd be HU in position on the river, but without some read that isn't indicated in this post, I really don't think you can reasonably expect that. [/ QUOTE ] yeah, i didn't really mind SB coming along because i figured it'd be very tough for him to bluff into the two of us, but having MP3 behind me was pretty lame.
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#39
12-09-2005, 06:08 PM
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Re: empire 55r
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I really don't think you can flat call here because you're giving up way too many chips when someone else raises behind you, and you have two players left to act [/ QUOTE ] there aren't that many made hands that SB is going to check twice. i think he needs to have K9/99/KK/22 to take that line with something strong. similarly i thought MP3 was pretty much giving up on the hand by checking behind on a coordinated flop. [/ QUOTE ] If this line is correct, wouldn't a push be better than a call?? I'm not necessarily saying you should fold (although I did say that I would probably fold), but I think if you're going to put any more chips into this pot, it should really be all of them. There are a lot of river cards that look pretty bad for your hand, and I'd hate to get outplayed on the river for this many chips. [/ QUOTE ] my thinking was that if i pushed, the odds were very low i was going to get called by a worse hand (thinking back on it, i think that the pfr might find a call with something like TT/98/88) so i would be basically semi-bluffing all-in with 2 outs, with 3 opp's still in the pot. i'd be basically turning my hand into 22. i figured since i didn't like a 22 push, a JJ push is wrong. i thought a call was good because it was likely i'd end up HU in position on the river, and i rated to have the best hand on the turn. in retrospect, i think a fold is probably best with so many people in the pot and the fact that i can't call a reasonable river bet, but i think it's pretty close. [/ QUOTE ] Going to try and keep this from going quote crazy. I guess my point that I didn't articulate well, is that there is more than enough money in the pot to be worth winning right now. I will point out again that my original line is to fold here, but provided this read: [ QUOTE ] there aren't that many made hands that SB is going to check twice. i think he needs to have K9/99/KK/22 to take that line with something strong. similarly i thought MP3 was pretty much giving up on the hand by checking behind on a coordinated flop. [/ QUOTE ] is right on, I think you have to push if you're putting more chips in. You said yourself this is a coordinated (and therefore dangerous) board. I think there are a lot of hands that you're currently ahead of that you could potentially be behind on the river, and you want them to be forced to put their money in with the worst of it, not get a chance to hit the river and then get more money in once they get ahead. That's why if I play this I'm pushing it. While it's true that TT/88 will probably fold to this push, and you may be able to get more out of them on the river, do you really think TT/88 are going to fire more into this pot?? True, they might call a small river value bet, but I'm not sure how comfortable you feel betting the river either if checked to. On top of it the board had quite a few potential draws (there are two flush draws, and straight draws that involve broadway cards here, although given that you have JJ, straights are unlikely) that you don't want to get a cheap draw. This is being somewhat results oriented here, but if you push here, I think you win this hand. I don't think the flush draw can call you, and even if they did, you shut them out of having proper odds to do so by raising. I mean no offense at this, because based on your posts I think you are a very intelligent player who plays some very solid poker, but I think you have a bit of a cash gamer's mentality here. Sometimes in tournaments, it's simply enough to win the hand right there without the showdown. You are absolutely correct though in that I don't think you get called here by a worse hand very often. My reasoning for raising over calling is to protect your hand. If your hand is strong enough to call here you obviously have to think it is currently the best hand, and based on this board I don't know that you can reasonably expect it to be the best hand on the river often enough to risk the entire pot on it. While I'm certainly not one of those 'tournament life on the line' type of people, I'd prefer to take this pot down without the showdown if I was going to go after it. In my personal experience (and a big part of the point I was REALLY aiming at with my 'Obsession with value bets' piece) you want to play strong poker more often than not in tournaments, and you'd rather win a lot of decent sized pots without a showdown than a few big ones where you have to take the risk of being drawn out on. As I've (poorly) stated a few times before, I really think here if you're going to play, you want to win what's in the pot right now and I wouldn't worry about trying to squeeze that extra few thousand chips out if it means risking the entire pot, which is now sizable enough to be worthwhile without any further building. -Rizen Shameless plug for my poker blog: http://rizenpoker.blogspot.com
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#40
12-09-2005, 08:21 PM
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Re: empire 55r JJ facing raise
Pre-flop : I call every time. I would only raise with AK, AA, KK and QQ (not all the time with QQ).
Unfortunately, you get 2 callers (they are likely calling with medium/drawing hands, because they didn't raise). On the flop : SB : He could have a hand and going for a CR or nothing. Raiser : He doesn't have a good hand 95% of the time. Why wouldn't you bet if you have a set, TPTK, or AA? There's 2 players left( plus the SB) and there's a FLUSH DRAW. You : You checked. I would bet 2400 here, you will take it down 50% of the time, be called by a Flush draw 25% of the time and called by a K 25% of the time. If I get raised or CR, I would fold. But you checked. Checked behind. What should you think. There might be someone on the Flush Draw, SB could have done a CR but MP1 and the player behind have nothing. Turn K: SB:Check MP1: Bets 2400 - I still thinks he has nothing, I would Play WAWB if HU, but with flush draw out there and 2 other players, I would try to take the pot down. POt = 6600 and you have 10000. You have to at least raise to 5k. Would you bet 5k and then fold if raised? No, so I would go all-in. That has the advantage of making fold any draw, so you will only get called by players who missplayed their hand. All-called. River : Runner-Runner flush. You can only chek this, and like you said call a medium bet by the last player to act. What I think, is that player don't slow-play when there's a flush draw and 3 other players in a hand. So I would go ahead and give it a try on the flop.
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