What Tiffany Willaimson did right

[niin]

[ QUOTE ]
2+2 and ConJelCo reserve the right to refuse to post or to remove any information or materials, in whole or in part, that, in its sole discretion, are unacceptable, undesirable, or in violation of this Agreement

[/ QUOTE ]

Their board, their rules.

'nuff said.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right dong, nobody here who's criticized Tiffany could ever beet her, their games are full of leeks im sure.
Plus, I doubt any of them could make the critical reeds needed when the pressure is on like Tiffany.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like beets and leeks in my game. And my stew.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree she didn't know what she was doing in a lot of ways. But her strategy was good. She played aggressively and tried to keep the action preflop and create big gambles. She also had courage and didn't play like a calling station or weak/tight. That is partly how she got as far as she did without being a skilled player. She got lucky, but it wasn't just luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is the thing about NLH tournament poker: If you know you are deficient in one or more areas of play, you can maximize your chances of success by playing to the strengths you do have. In Tiffany's case, as in the case of many inexperienced players, this means serious preflop aggression-- whatever it takes to put the pressure on your opponent to make them gamble with you, reducing their skill edges.

IMO Tiffany's real problem is that she wasn't camera-hot enough for the 2+2 crowd. If, for example, Erin Ness last year had made a similar run with similar play and suckouts, at least 2/3 of the "she sucks" posters would be the "who cares she's hot post pics" posters.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

We are seeing some inaccurate editing by ESPN on this hand. There is no way that the clock was called on TW immediately after I went all-in. I remember this hand taking a long time, at least 5 minutes, and maybe as long as 15 minutes. I also don't recall hearing who called for the clock. My recollection is that when the floorman came over and told TW that she was on the clock, I asked him who put the clock on her, because I had not. As shown on ESPN, there is no way I could have missed seeing Sheik putting the clock on her, and that's not how I remember it at all.

In any event, I have no doubt that she had plenty of time to make a full decision on that hand. It may be that 5+ minutes went by before she asked for a physical count, and ESPN removed that time interval or any evidence of it from the show. I'm not 100% sure.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Easy E]

Too bad you had a disguised dagger in your hand to take another stab at her.

You want to let this go now?

[grandgnu]

Uh, for all the people complaining about her asking for a count:

1. Yes, Greg Raymer is a nice guy, and I'd be likely to trust him

2. But, you're in the final stages of a multi-day tournament where you have a legitimate shot at winning 7.5 million dollars (significantly more than the 300-400K you stand to win at this juncture)

3. It is always POSSIBLE that your opponent, whomever they may, might make a mistake in their chip count. And there are plenty of opponents who will outright misrepresent their stack count as well. If they say they have 7,000 chips but they really have 70,000, and you don't bother to get an accurate chip count, then when you call their all-in and find out they had a lot more chips and you shouldn't have been calling, it won't do you any good, because you already made the call.

I know if I was playing for another 7.1 million in prize money, I'd probably want to get an accurate count as well.

[benkahuna]

What I didn't like about it was that:

1. He told her, right away. Yet she asked again to probe for more information.
2. His chips were clearly visible. If she decides not to trust his number, she can estimate for herself.
3. While possibly not an exact count (kind of doubt that because I think Greg said he keeps a tight handle on his stack size--though she probably doesn't know this), it should have been close enough for TW to make a decision.

If it's only 1.27 million, does this change her decision? Come on.

I also appreciate Greg giving a non-tv account of this situation. Thanks!

[MRBAA]

You take an intelligent, competitive person with no previous experience playing high-stakes, pressure cooker tourney poker against tough professional opponents and the new player is either going to get run over or she's going to make some gaffes. From what I saw, Tiffany was determined not to get pushed around and her lack of experience led to the long delay and other minor faux pas. She did not gloat or do anything obnoxious other than these -- unlike Mattias Anderssen from the 2004 WSOP who would pump his fist and scream, or Matusow, who regularly angleshoots, or a host of other very annyoing creeps.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
1. He told her, right away. Yet she asked again to probe for more information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, she's got a shot at winning 300-400K, or 7.5 million (or at least moving up to somewhere more than 400K). I'd be looking to get as much information as possible. Don't pro's typically probe for their marks to start yapping so they can determine if their opponent wants a call or not? I don't see them criticised for that.


[ QUOTE ]
2. His chips were clearly visible. If she decides not to trust his number, she can estimate for herself.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a fairly new player to the game. In addition, because of the Internet era, a lot of players have difficulty counting chip stacks because they're used to seeing it displayed on screen for them without any hassle.

Pro's who play in multiple 10K buy-in events throughout a year might not have any trouble counting down their opponents stacks. But a new player to the game, or even an experienced player who isn't used to having to count down hundreds of thousands in chips might have some difficulty.


[ QUOTE ]
3. While possibly not an exact count (kind of doubt that because I think Greg said he keeps a tight handle on his stack size--though she probably doesn't know this), it should have been close enough for TW to make a decision. If it's only 1.27 million, does this change her decision? Come on.

[/ QUOTE ]

She might not know this. But even if she did, Greg is not infallible and could have made a mistake. If I'm playing for a significant portion of my own chip stack, I'd want to get an accurate count as well.

[AAmaz0n]

I know that this may not jive with your recollection Greg, but since you are still counting chips throughout the first part of this sequence, it would appear to be happening in close to real time. Because you are turned away from Sheik and concentrating on counting your chips, it makes sense that you didn’t notice what he said. The audio was likely more prominent in the show because the microphone was closer to him than you were at the table.

It doesn’t really appear, however, that she was rushed at all, although it’s not clear when the clock came in.

I know that there has been talk before about "creative editing" on some shows and having worked in film I understand how this can happen through mistakes or time compression.

Let’s check out the sequence:

After Raymer makes it 1.3 M, we see the table fold around to Sartori

[3 shot of Sartori, TW, GR]

We see Sartori fold,
Tiffany: “how much”
Greg: “1.3 M exactly”
Tiffany then looks at the dealer and says: “Could you count it please?”

This is all in one shot with no cuts and is clearly happening in real time.

[cut to overhead shot]

Greg is counting his chips, his face leaning on his left hand and turned away from Sheik.

Sheik: “Could you get a time on her please.”

[cut to close up on TW]

Tiffany: “I haven’t even…….. he hasn’t even counted it yet.”
Background voice, presumably Sheik: “he already told you how much he’s got honey.”
Tiffany: “You can’t get a time on it. I haven’t even got a count on this hand yet.”

[during the last sentence we cut from close up on TW back to the 3 shot of Sitori, TW, GR. Her right hand moves smoothly and matches motion through the cut and it is clearly done in real time.]

Raymer is still counting chips.

[cut to close up on Sheik]

Announcer starts talking about how this is related to the long fold by TW on another hand.

[cut back to 3 shot of Sartori, TW, GR]

Raymer finishes counting.

Tiffany: “1.3?”
Greg: “Yes.”
Tiffany: “Altogether?”

[cut to dolly shot of Raymer]

Greg <finally exasperated> “YES. 1……………..altogether I only have 1.3”

Although there are some cuts in this sequence, Greg is counting chips through most of it, and there is no sense of compression.

Following this are some cuts of close ups and two shots of TW and GR and banter about what a story this would be, Tiffany muses about the hand, and there is a lot of places where time was likely taken out so the hand wouldn’t take the full 5 to 15 minutes.

Although we hear the clock called for, we never see it come in and do not hear any countdown. It may have taken a while to get over there, and it’s not clear from the footage when it arrived. Because we see Raymer counting chips when Sheik calls for the clock, and Tiffany protest that the count isn’t done yet, his call for the clock must have occured during this period of time.

The second part of the sequence where there are more close ups and bantering is no doubt where these is “missing time” so that the hand didn’t take forever on TV.

I was glad to see the clock get called here; asking for a count was just a bush move on her part. For those who say that she had a right to an accurate count because a lot was on the line - Raymer had his chips in very orderly fashion and was clear about the amount. He was right next to her and she could see for herself how many he had. It was clearly just a stall on her part, especially when at the end after he does a whole recount for her and she still asks twice: “1.3?” “yes” “altogether?” Geez.

Either she is trying to stall or aggravate Raymer here, and it was just another example of her being rude. It’s a shame FossilMan didn’t have her covered here; I would have loved to see her bust out on a foolish call like this after essentially accusing him of being misleading about the amount.

Shauna