vs Steal Attempts (Gap Concept & Check-Calling)

[That guy]

I just read the 'get my VPIP up thread' which had this statement:

"You don't defend with KT ?! I steal with Q9"

Well, would you rather have Q9 in position or KT in the blind? Yes, you are getting a good price to play so you should clearly see the flop with KT (or less). But are you willing to pay all the bets to showdown with an unimproved king-high to beat an unimproved Q9? If not, then Q9 on the button is more valuable than KT in the blind.

Very common BB situation:
Let's say you are defending the BB from a steal with whatever... call it QTo, the flop comes with a Q or a T (but not necessarily Q high or T high)... you check-raise --get called -- and lead the turn. Now the thief will often raise you when ahead and x% of the time with draws/overcards. Now you are stuck in this tricky situation of being beat more often than not (you were dominated) and will have to pay extra bets to showdown vs not getting those extra bets when the stealer gives up and folds the turn (when you have the better hand).

In limit poker, is it best to just throw the Gap Concept out the window when it comes to defending your blind against a LP raise and just go full steam ahead?

Or, is this a good time (hitting the flop from the BB) to check-raise the flop and then enter 'defensive-shell-check-call' mode thereafter (I can already hear the flaming)...

Is it just too weak to consider entering check-call mode in limit poker or is it just being sensical to be a little defensive when you have a hand that is easily dominated (a la Q9o/QTo/JTo/A8o) and you are playing it out of position??

[fearme]

checkcalling is weak, a pair of q's or 10's is gonna win so many showdowns so i wouldn't fear getting turn popped

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
In limit poker, is it best to just throw the Gap Concept out the window when it comes to defending your blind against a LP raise and just go full steam ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

In limit poker it's more like a reverse Gap concept because you are getting such a good price in the Big Blind, especially in 2 chip, 3 chip blind games, almost 4:1. So you can call with some pretty weak stuff.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it just too weak to consider entering check-call mode in limit poker or is it just being sensical to be a little defensive when you have a hand that is easily dominated (a la Q9o/QTo/JTo/A8o) and you are playing it out of position??

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not too weak, but you should mix up your play some and be willing to showdown some weak hands.

[Dreamer]

I also think having stealing stats is important as some people are habitual stealers and will try it with virtually any 2 cards.
Against mr tighty you must adjust.

I never think in terms of hands but more in terms of the player doing the steal raise and what his likley range of holdings can be.
Adding that to the SB folding you might have some nice odds for a call with the 2/3 SB structure.
I often 3 bet quite a bit too [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

One thing I often see when looking at other players PT stats is that they defend the BB liberally yet almost give away the SB which makes little sense.

D.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
give away the SB which makes little sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to play tighter in the SB because you aren't closing the action.

[DcifrThs]

first off, if he raises you on the turn you can call down. thats not timid, thats sensible. if he has literally nothing you gain nothing from 3 betting and lose more when behind and he can't call that 3 bet.

but you have to watch out...i noticed that since im pretty tight in the blinds, people who KNOW im tight raise me with lots of crap...

this one guy who loves to c'r in 30/60, it was folded around to him. he raised my blind i 3 bet with A6o.

flop came k64 or something, he checkraised me i 3 bet he called.

turn was a J. he checkraised and i called down.

stoxtrader showed me J4o...so dont be too tight in your blinds, otherwise they WILL be stolen quite liberally.

-Barron