HU against a "PT'er"

Okay, maybe I'm looking at the wrong chart, or I'm just altogether reading it incorrectly.

But, for 4 outs, you need 10.5 to 1 to call the river, and only 5 to 1 to call the turn.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

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so I don't think you can count flop-to-river

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This might explain why the chart I'm looking at is wrong.

[bozlax]

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so ATs-AKs, 88-AA, KQs, KJs, AJ-AKo. with that range do u still fold?

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The only parts that help you are JJ/99/88/AJo...the least likely parts. The rest you're still in trouble to. Give me "any pocket pair and middle suited connectors" and then we can talk.

[silkyslim]

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Obviously the only suspect street is the flop.

In general you probably have like 3-ish outs here. A three-betting hand (with the exception of JJ, maybe 99; TT has you drawing basically dead) is dominating you here (AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ). Occasionally you have three over card outs but your giving reverse implied odds with them and out of position will possibly miss bets when you hit anyway. Your bad door flush is suspect and maybe worth 1 out. The backdoor straight is even more unlikely. I think it's hard to say you have more than 3-4 effective outs here. We can't can't implied odds because in fact we're giving them, really. Heads-up a decent taggish type is not often checking behind on the turn here, as AK and AQ still rate to be the best hands on a turn blank and every other hand is going full-steam ahead.


So, I hate to agree with the table-coachy dude, but the flop call is incorrect in my opinion.

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since he was so talkative and critiquing everyones play, i didnt want him to start isolating me all the time for easy $ from my flop folds. I was going to fold the turn UI. Can I invest 1 SB that is slightly -EV for image against someone who is paying attention?

[bozlax]

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so I don't think you can count flop-to-river

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This might explain why the chart I'm looking at is wrong.

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The chart is right, you're applying it wrong.

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so I don't think you can count flop-to-river

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This might explain why the chart I'm looking at is wrong.

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The chart is right, you're applying it wrong.

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That's what I meant.

[bozlax]

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Can I invest 1 SB that is slightly -EV for image against someone who is paying attention?

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Of course you can. What are you going to do when one of your overcards comes on the turn, you c/r him and he 3-bets?

On the turn if you have exactly 4 outs you need 10.5:1 to call (to see the river). 42 cards you lose, 4 cards you win so the ratio is 42/4 = 10.5:1

On the flop (assuming you have 4 pure outs twice - like a gutshot) then you would need less odds to call the flop (to see the turn) and turn (to see the river). You have your four outs twice so you have more chances to hit (two streets). I usually just count my outs a time and a half (so 6 in the flop gutshot example) as a quick calculation for needed odds on the flop.

The problem Here is that you do not have pure outs. When you give one out to a BD draw you are already accounting for two streets . . . if you then account for it as a whole out twice (on 2 streets) you are doublecounting. Here the estimate of "outs" are not true outs and should not be "counted up". Also, this does not inclue implied odds or reverse implied odds given by the board and the action. Does this make sense?

EDIT: If you PM the chart you have I can tell you where the numbers are coming from. I'm good at math but I suck at the strategy aspect of Poker =)

[silkyslim]

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Can I invest 1 SB that is slightly -EV for image against someone who is paying attention?

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Of course you can. What are you going to do when one of your overcards comes on the turn, you c/r him and he 3-bets?

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id call down

[Entity]

I fold the flop.