Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Results and Panel Comments

[Lloyd]

This is Part Five of our second "Play a Hand with the Masters". If you haven't already contributed to the first four parts you should do so first (see the links in the sticky at the top).

The panel included <font color="blue">Gigabet</font>, <font color="green">MLG</font>, and <font color="purple">Che</font>. <font color="black">Comments by the panel are in their appropriate colors.

Setup
$100+9 Party Poker MTT
Blinds 50/100
Hero is Gigabet
No strong read on villain

Stacks

UTG: t5380
Hero: t2670
MP: t1270
MP+1: t1333
MP+2: 2395
CO: t1394
Button: t2917
SB: 2270
BB: 2915

Pre-Flop
Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG folds. Hero raises to t275. All fold to the BB who calls.</font>

<font color="blue">Gigabet: When I limp with AK it is for stack protection reasons, never with the intentions of trapping another player. Alot of responses mentioned they limp with AK when there is a super aggro maniac behind them. I am never at the same table with those types of players long enough to set up a situation where limp trapping with AK will produce better results than standard raising with AK.

An example of a time when I would limp with AK would be at a table where the avg stack for the table is 100bb and the avg stack for the field is less than that. If another stack opens with a limp, and there are other limpers behind, quite often, I will choose to limp with AK. The value in raising off the limpers, IMO, is greatly reduced by the fact that you will usually win a small pot, or lose a big one. When I am in that position, I still raise frequently, but my hand selection moves to drawing hands, one or two gapped suited connectors and small pairs. </font>

<font color="green">MLG: The standard play here is obviously to raise to about 300. I would do that the vast majority of the time. However, given the stack sizes behind you, if the table dynamics are correct an argument could be made for limping AK here. Realistically if anybody behind you raises you will be getting it all-in preflop so by limping you increase the range of hands that you will be playing against to include more hands like AJ/KQ that would fold if you raised, but might raise if you limped. In order to consider limping here I would want at least a 75%ish chance that it will be raised behind me (either by LP, or one of the blinds taking a shot at the dead money of a limp fest).

<font color="purple">Che: I would make a standard open-raise to t300. I can't think of a reason to just limp at this stage of a Party MTT. If I'm re-raised, given no reads, I would call or re-raise against any single opponent. If there was a small re-raise and an overcall I would usually just call. I would always play against two short all-ins (MP, MP+1, CO), sometimes against 2 deeper all-ins, and almost never against 3 or more (exception: all opponents are short so odds are good and risk is limited).</font>

<font color="black">Flop
Pot: t600

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks. Hero bets t300. BB raises to t600. Hero calls t300.</font>

<font color="blue">Gigabet: My bet on the flop was designed to get raised, I thought the villain may see that as a standard continuation bet and decide to play back at me. He thought for awhile, and finally minraised, I took that as a weak attempt to steal my bet, or set up a continuation on the turn to steal.

I was going to raise right here, but if my thinking is correct, there is no value in raising here, however, I might get him to bluff some more chips on the turn.

When I really like my hand(meaning I will go broke with it), I do not put my opponent on a range of hands. I know that I want everything to get in the middle, so I just need to figure out how to do that. It is difficult to get action from a player who missed, but not impossible. Usually, that is what the plan of action is, when you have something that fits well with the board. Try to get the villain to put more money in, when he had already given up. In this particular hand, the board is so coordinated, that it would be unlikely to get action from someone who had missed completely. </font>

<font color="green">MLG: Comments before the check-raise I would bet about 350 on this flop. Your opponent might have a wide range of hands, but most of them you aren't going to get much more money out of. Hands like suited connectors and small pairs are most likely going to give up. There are, however, a larger percentage of hands that you beat that will call a bet. Hands like AJ/KJ will get all-in with you, and hands like AQ/KQ/QJ/A10 are going to at least call a bet if not raise you. So im planning on betting the flop to give him a chance to put more in, and then follow that up with a smallish 1/2 pot bet on the turn. Unless the turn is a Q/10 in which case I will reevaluate.

Comments after the check-raise This is a very odd play from the BB. Very odd. The min raise from the BB here would be a very bad play with a hand like KQ/A10 because (from the BBs persepctive) we've given them odds to draw and a call would clearly be the right play. Also, it would seem to be a bad raise from weaker made hands than ours like KJ/AJ because it gives us great odds to draw (which we very well might be from the BBs perspective we could have AQ/A10/KQ)Of course when thinking along those lines we always run the danger of attributing more thought to an opponent then is warranted (opponents make bad/unthinking plays all the time). Still I'm more inclined to look at this raise as most likely being one of two types of hands.

1. A weakish A something like A6s that thinks he might be good and is raising to "find out where he's at."

2. A monster.

Given that read (and also including the smaller chance that its a bad raise with KQ/KJ/A10 or something) I'm inclined to call the flop bet with the intention of getting more money on the river. That is, if the BB checks the turn, I will check behind trying to get mroe money out of a weak A on the river. If the BB bets the turn, I'm calling. There's just no way I see being able to get away from AK here even if the BB does end up having Q10/JJ. </font>

<font color="purple">Che: Comments before the check-raise I would put the villain on any playable hand definitely including AKo-AJo, suited Aces, suited broadway, suited connectors down to 54, J9s, KQo. The range would frequently include KJo, QJo, QTo, JTo, smaller unsuited Aces, unsuited connectors, suited one or even two gappers. Occasionally it would include wacky stuff like suited Kings, 95s, and 75o. With only 27 BBs, I generally just focus on the first set since the opponents who play the larger ranges are offset by the opponents who fold some of the hands in my "definitely includes" set (e.g. A6s, 54s).

I would bet t450. I think the default play for the average Party player is to check this flop whether he hit hard, missed completely or is somewhere in between. I don’t want to give a free card to the small pocket pairs and T9’s of the world that will not put any more money in unless they improve. I also want to stack AJ and KJ while making AQ/AT/KQ-type hands pay to chase me. My normal continuation bet is 60-80% pot and I tend toward the lower end on a board with few big draws.

If he raises I would call. QT and JJ are the only hands that are likely to be beating me (only 1 AA and 1 KK plus he didn’t raise preflop), but he may check-raise any of the many two-pair hands or pair+gutshot hands. Add in the occasional Party check-raise bluff with 66 or whatever and it’s an easy call.

If the opponent calls and the turn is a 2-9, I would raise all-in if the villain bets. If he checks, I'd bet t850 and call if he check-raises. I'm still well ahead of opponent's range. A "7" may give him a set, but it could just as easily give him 2-pair so nothing has really changed. If the turn is a T-Q I reluctantly call if opponent leads or otherwise check behind. I call because I can't convince myself to fold top two against an unknown Party opponent with a 27 BB stack if I only have 30 seconds to think about it. If the turn is an A or K, I happily call if opponent leads, otherwise I would check behind. If the stacks were deeper I would bet to build a bigger pot so that I could stack my opponent on the river. However, the pot at this point is only slightly smaller than the effective stack sizes so I can check once to induce a bluff but still get all the chips in on the river if he actually has a hand.

Comments after the check-raise Even if we give the villain all 16 QT hands and the 3 JJ hands that are beating us, we are still ahead the vast majority of the time. AJ, KJ, AQ, ATs, KQ, QQ and TT are all candidates for a check-minraise for a total of 42 hands. Throw in some smaller suited aces and a few total bluffs and we are way ahead.

I would like to discount some of these hands as hands that the opponent should check-raise bigger or check-call, but a minraise of a less than half-pot sized bet doesn’t really tell me much unless it pot-commits the check-raiser.

So, I really dislike the bet of t300 in an online MTT. I can understand how a skilled B&amp;M player can make this bet work, but the limited amount of info available online makes betting a little bit more much better IMHO.

Given my range above, I clearly cannot fold. Another thing I dislike about the small cont bet is that I am now forced to flat call or commit my entire stack. I don’t really want to push, since I will only be called by AA/KK/JJ/QT/AJ/KJ and an occasional AQ. As on the flop, I don’t want to give hands like 99 a free card when they will not bet again unless they improve plus I want to overcharge the 6-outers so I probably raise to 1350 (750 more to the villain).

The money goes all-in on the turn regardless of what the opponent does or what the turn card is. Only exception is if the turn is an A or K, in which case I revert to my original turn play (i.e. check behind to induce a bluff on the river).</font>

<font color="black">Turn
Pot: t1800

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets t800. Hero calls t800.</font>

<font color="blue">Gigabet: His turn bet surprised me a little bit, I expected him to bet 600, push or ck. He basically tells me that he is committing his stack, with the smallest bet necessary. Normally, I raise all in when someone tells me that, no matter how strong my hand is. I don't want something very scary to hit, and make them fold the rest of their chips on the river. Now, when I have a very strong hand, I rarely analyze the line and narrow the hand range of the villain , but I always do that when I am putting all of my chips in.

So before I push, I go through the line and I eventually decide that he has absolutely nothing, must be bluffing, there is no hand he can play this way(that read is always nothing, or the nuts....I forgot about the nuts.)

After deciding that he was running a bluff, I obviously "just" called. </font>

<font color="green">MLG: Well the turn card seems harmless enough. The bet of 800 pretty much committs the BB. There is very little chance he is folding for his last 1200 in this massive pot. I'm still convinced that I most likely have the best hand, and given that I fully expect a call now I'm gonna push. If he has JJ/Q10 so be it. </font>

<font color="purple">Che: Villain’s range obviously shifts slightly toward the stronger end as he puts more money in the pot, but there is no line he can take that will discount the 42 hands (that I was beating on the flop) enough to make me fold to the fear of the 16 hands (that were beating me on the flop) plus the 3 unlikely hands that villain picked up on the turn (77’s that he check-raise bluffed on the flop). The stacks are simply not deep enough to fold top 2 with this much dead money on this board.

I would raise all-in. My original plan was to bet 450 on the flop, call a non-pot-commiting raise, and then bet or raise a turn 7. The bet to 300 followed by the minraise led me to change to reraising the flop, but calling would have been my second choice. If I did bet 300 and then only call the minraise, I would revert to my initial plan.

While pushing the turn will certainly not fold any hands that are beating me, I will be called by hands I am beating (since villain is pot-committed unless he is bluffing with total air) and I want to charge the villain to draw to any new outs he has picked up on the turn (flush draw if he has Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or gutshot if he has T9 or something goofy like that). I might consider just calling the turn if the 7 was a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], but even then I would probably just push.

My plan on the river is to see where I am when the cards turnover and then scream for an Ace if I'm behind or scream for an Ace if I'm winning.</font>

<font color="black">River
Pot: t3400

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks. Hero checks.</font>

<font color="blue">Gigabet: The river card didn't scare me, I knew that my money was already all in.

Just as I expect, he checks, and as I get ready to push, I stop myself and think about his range of hands for calling(I still didn't think I was beat.) I see the diamonds made it, the board was paired.

Now, I am not a passive player on the river, I try and get maximum value for every one of my hands that I see to the river, and expect to showdown a winner. I bet alot of hands for value, that I think some people just open muck. I go through the hands that he can call with, even with the standard loose calling requirements. I eventually decide that he cannot call me, unless he can beat me. Which, I had already decided that he can't. I usually bet there anyway, just to avoid a showdown, less information about my hand and play, and such.

But, since this was for all my chips, I very grudgingly checked. I was quite surprised to see the pot shipped the wrong direction. </font>

<font color="green">MLG: You're behind almost all hands that can call a river bet now. I'd check behind here. </font>

<font color="purple">Che: I would check the river. An additional 8 reasonable hands are beating us (AJ/KJ) plus several less likely hands (QJ/JT/diamond draws). Add in the QT/JJ hands that were already beating us and we have a clear check since many of the hands we were beating (KQ/QQ/TT/ATs and even AQ for some players) may escape despite the incredible pot odds. I think the bet is –EV since nothing that is beating us will fold, but a few hands we are beating will sometimes escape.</font>

<font color="black">Result
BB turns over Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a straight. Hero has two pair. BB wins the hand.

[Lloyd]

I understand that some of you have found this hand to be incredibly straightforward. I do agree that it didn't have quite the complexity of our last hand. However, it's very typical of online MTTs when you are easily playing for your entire stack on any single hand. I also think this hand is a good discussion on the concept of "Way Ahead / Way Behind" as from the flop on that was the case.

I personally found value in this hand right away. There were two situations I've played recently where I drew from this hand. The first, I induced a bluff from a smaller Ace. The second, I kep the pot small enough that I didn't lose as much as I could have. And had I thought about this hand a little more during a tournament today this post might not be up yet since I'd still be playing!

And let's not forget, this was submitted by Gigabet. Most would say he's at the very top of the MTT ladder. Perhaps, just perhaps, we'll be able to learn something that makes a small difference in our game. And it's those small differences that really separate the good from the great players.

Gigabet has submitted some of his thoughts already and I've asked him to contribute further to this thread. So hopefully everyone will have an opportunity to ask some questions and find out why he thought this was of the most interesting hands he has played.

[Firefly]

Street by street IMHO it's kind of a bland hand. But overall it's very interesting and i like the way Gig played it. Obviously he lost out on the ~T800 villan had left on the river if he was ahead but it's definately gooing to be curtains if we are behind.
So instead of looking street by street, holistically it is an interesting hand imho

[MLG]

I for one was thrilled that I agreed with giga on almost all streets. I'm not persuaded that checking the turn is right, but I can certainly see the argument for it more now than at the time I put my comments together.

[adanthar]

Do I win anything for the river? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I disagree about the turn bet though...I think AJ/KJ play the same way here occasionally, which warrants an immediate push.

[CardSharpCook]

nice work LLoyd, Che, MLG, Gigabet.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
An example of a time when I would limp with AK would be at a table where the avg stack for the table is 100bb and the avg stack for the field is less than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's clear to me why you'd choose to limp in those situations when the players at the table (or the ones involved at least, including yourself) have 100BBs+ with that type of hand. What's not clear is the importance that the rest of the field have stacks below this threshhold. Would you mind elaborating a little bit further?

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An example of a time when I would limp with AK would be at a table where the avg stack for the table is 100bb and the avg stack for the field is less than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's clear to me why you'd choose to limp in those situations when the players at the table (or the ones involved at least, including yourself) have 100BBs+ with that type of hand. What's not clear is the importance that the rest of the field have stacks below this threshhold. Would you mind elaborating a little bit further?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember who posted this but here's a near quote: [ QUOTE ]
The difference btwn being broke and having $1M is obvious. The diffence btwn $4M and $5M is still noticeable, but not nearly as important. When you have $100M - what's a couple mil btwn friends?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the stituation you would have here. You all have $100M and you're playing for a $1M. What's the point? You want to either take a very large portion of someone's stack or not even bother. Why? Because what does it matter if you now have $101M when the rest of the field averages $15M?

[Exitonly]

Awesome, the analysis after the hand was much better done this time compared to the last masters hand. Much better. And i think the line i'd have taken compares pretty nicely to the 'masters'.


Awesome job Lloyd, and thanks Che/MLG/Giga.

Good work, can't wait for the next one. Though I remember the last time you said who followed the panelists desicions the closest. Decided there was no reason for that this time?