Rarely raising pre-flop in PLO/PLO8B - how EV- is this?

[CurryLover]

It's clearly 'correct' to raise pre-flop in PL/NL Hold'em, and you very obviously lose out by not doing so in many situations.

However, in PLO and PLO8B do you lose out on much EV if you rarely raise pre-flop? Since all hands in these games are drawing hands etc....

The biggest cash game I play every week is a deep stacked (average stack is around 400BBs and big stacks more than 2,000BBs) PL Dealer's Choice cash game. The most common choice is 4 or 5 card PLO8B but PLO is played a lot too. It seems that I do not raise pre-flop anywhere near as much as I do in Hold'em cash games. I am often playing in raised pots because many of the others do raise a lot pre-flop, but I probably raise less than most of the other players pre-flop. Of course, I play aggressively after the flop.

I am doing well in this game (at the moment) but am relatively inexperienced at PLO and PLO8B. For this reason I have been doing a lot of thinking about just how sub-optimal my play is in this game.

So how bad is it to rarely raise pre-flop in PLO and PLO8B? Is it a reasonable way to play (even if slightly sub-optimal) or are you losing a huge amount of EV playing this way?

[RickyG]

You might be doing yourself a disservice by limping in late position with your above average hands, but if you play well post flop, then the mistake is not as bad as in holdem, as there is very rarely a hand which completely dominates another.

I hope the answer wasnt so generic as to be useless.

I'm no expert but you fail to do several important things when you don't raise when you should:
a) you get less value from the good hands/situations (as you know a butterfly chip preflop can bring about tornado raises on the river)
b) you let mediocre hands get a cheap shot at the pot
c) you don't thin the field so as to play against the "right" number of opponents for you in the situation.
d) the pot building process is deferred, thus leaving plenty implied odds on the flop. This may or may not be avoidable depending on stack sizes, but if your hand is good but volatile on the flop you don't want being limited in the amounts you can bet (relative to the stacks).

Position is of paramount importance in your decision to raise or not, and raising from early pos should not be frequent, but hardly ever raising from any pos is certainly sub-optimal as you said.

FRC

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm no expert but you fail to do several important things when you don't raise when you should:
a) you get less value from the good hands/situations (as you know a butterfly chip preflop can bring about tornado raises on the river)
b) you let mediocre hands get a cheap shot at the pot
c) you don't thin the field so as to play against the "right" number of opponents for you in the situation.
d) the pot building process is deferred, thus leaving plenty implied odds on the flop. This may or may not be avoidable depending on stack sizes, but if your hand is good but volatile on the flop you don't want being limited in the amounts you can bet (relative to the stacks).

Position is of paramount importance in your decision to raise or not, and raising from early pos should not be frequent, but hardly ever raising from any pos is certainly sub-optimal as you said.

FRC

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound like an expert in your answer. NH.

I'd add that you should raise with a wide variety of strong starting hands if you do reaise preflop.
4 cards ten or higher with a pair and a 2 flush is a hand I like to raise with in either game. In OH8, strong two way hands are also worth a raise for me. A lot of people will put you on AAxx and when you have something else and hit well, you can cause significant damage.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Most PLO strategy books insist that raising in EP is -EV no matter how strong your hand is.

Yes, the hand is not enough in itself -- the situation must be right, too. Being out of position is certainly an uphill battle, so you must have very good reasons to engage. Few, predictable opponents, raises committing you to the pot, or small raises to "juice" the pot but that also threaten a big reraise of yours should someone reraise behind you, are some examples. Do's and don'ts are just what they are, recommendations, but be sure to know what you are doing when you decide to jump over the fence.

FRC

[dibbs]

I much prefer to limp call in EP even with the strongest of hands.

I enjoy raising in LP with bangin connector hands or a nice fist full of paint, but I prefer just calling with AAxx because no one ever puts you on it. this may be very wrong though.

I will let experts comment on never raising out of position, my point was that this could be justifiable in a game plan, from a larger perspective than just the strength of your hand. This should be a rare thing still, so we are just discussing the difference between "never" and "hardly ever".

FRC

[joewatch]

I think always limping in preflop is a reasonable game plan. Basically, what you are doing is depending on your postflop play to make $. This is especially good at low-limits because raising almost never serves one of its main purposes, which is to limit the field size. But if players see what you are doing, then it will be -EV since people will always fold when you get involved in the hand. And you will leak money like a sieve with all of the preflop raises that you call. However, at low limits, people are rarely that observant.

If you find your play is profitable without ever raising preflop, I say do it.

[beset7]

If you win never raising preflop but would win more building pots with strong hands they you are losing money, even if you are winning.