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  #1  
Old 12-09-2005, 04:30 AM
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Default I need help with self control...

Ok, I'm not going to claim I'm a great limit player, but I'll give a couple of recent examples to show about where I stand. Several times in the past year I have deposited a small amount of money at Pokerstars, (200 or less), and EVERY SINGLE time, I have had huge gains in the first week or so. After that, I guess my game changes drastically, and I literally lose it all in one or two days including what I originally deposited. My individual sessions also show this same curve. I will be up substantially for the first hour or two, and then lose it all before I leave the table. It seems like I can never stay consistent for more than a few thousand hands. Now, I know normally you could just chalk this up to standard variance, but in my case it is a mental thing more than anything else. If anyone has tips for how I can improve my state of mind, I think I will finally be able to be a consistent winner.

Even with these problems, I have had a few decent tournament wins and am still up a little bit on the year.
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  #2  
Old 12-09-2005, 04:53 AM
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Default Re: I need help with self control...

[ QUOTE ]
If anyone has tips for how I can improve my state of mind, I think I will finally be able to be a consistent winner.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is THE most difficult aspect to poker- and also, that's what makes it the key.

From the VERY little I know about the game, I can tell it's more of a battle against yourself, than the other players at the table. It's all about reprogramming one's mentality- a huge feat in itself.

It ALWAYS amazes (and really impresses) me that when the top pros on the TV lose a tournament- how they lose gracefully- smile, shake hands, etc.

I think you can learn all the probabilities, pot-odds, outs, etc; that you like- but at some point you're going to need to look inside and learn the most difficult lessons of all: The effects of compulsion, addiction, excitement, reward, jealousy, anger, self-pity, etc.

It's a battle that (I believe) most will lose- that in itself will either bust them or at best, naturally limit their progression to a set level.

My plan is to learn the hardest lessons at the start, while it's cheap to do so ($0.02/0.04LH!!!). The fine tuning of the math can come a little later.

Sorry, I don't have any specific answers to offer.

Regards,
Ian
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2005, 09:16 AM
uncleshady uncleshady is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12
Default Re: I need help with self control...

[ QUOTE ]
I will be up substantially for the first hour or two, and then lose it all before I leave the table

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a permanent temporary solution for you.

Stop playing after you are ahead. You think Im effing with you but I am not. With your self control in question, and you are probably a newer(ish) player, you must practice hit and runs until you get the confidence to play longer. For a player who tends to lose after the first hour or so, what creeps into your mind after that first hour is up? "HOW WILL I EFF THIS UP?" and viola, you find a way. No book or coaching lesson will tell you to stop playing like an [censored] after that magical time expires, so the only way to avoid it is to not play during the time period you historically do poorly.

Log a winner, take an hour or two clean your filthy house or something and go back to work. Rinse and repeat until you get that confidence ONLY WINNING will give you. Good luck homie.
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  #4  
Old 12-09-2005, 10:08 AM
EStreet20 EStreet20 is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sayreville, NJ
Posts: 109
Default Re: I need help with self control...

All of the replies so far have been good. I'm not too crazy about the "quit while ahead" one but that's only because a more experienced player know not to quit when he/she is playing optimally at a good table, however for a beginner that idea may hold a little value. I'd re-word it to say stop playing after the time that you're usually ahead (for right now an hour as you said) either just sit out a few orbits or sign off and take a break or call it a day. At this point evaluate how you are doing emotionally, physically etc. I think that as you play longer you'll find that you are able to maintain a "good poker" level of concentration longer. Then you can take breaks at longer intervals. There is of course the possibility that your losses have been due to normal variance. But I'd say since you say it happens after a period of time in individual sessions it very well could be to poor concentration, fatigue etc etc.

I actually remember my growth process in this regard. When I first started I could play for hgours on end. Then when it became more routine I was cutting my sessions short due to being bored as hell/tired and everything else. After I developed the discipline to sit a little longer I simply began playing optimally for longer periods of time. Thus, I still cut my sessions whenever I feel myself "drifting out" but I feel that it takes longer to get to that point on average.

The other possibility is that you are a bad/novice player with a negative expectation and you are actually getting AHEAD in your sessions (or weeks, months) because of variance and then the normal distribution of hands combined with your mistakes causes you to dump money. No one will be able to determine if this is the cause or not without PT stats, hand posts etc. Either way continue to read and study the game while also working on disciplining yourself mentally and you should improve.

Good luck,
Matt
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  #5  
Old 12-09-2005, 10:30 AM
NorthernGuy NorthernGuy is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ontario
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Default Re: I need help with self control...

I wonder if you don't loosen up after you gain more chips, especially in relation to the others at the table. Keep playing the style that gained you the chips.
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  #6  
Old 12-09-2005, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: I need help with self control...

Thanks for the replies so far folks. The thing I notice most is that there really is no catalyst that starts this, not a bad beat or anything, but I always manage to be an idiot. I feel like I get over aggresive post flop after a while, but I don't really know how it compares to my play early on... I just know that sometimes I will 3 bet people trying to get them off a hand when I know they wont budge. Then I started getting nervous and soon enough I've lost everything. I know you were being honest with me, which is something I certainly need to be with myself, but I when I'm playing my game, I just don't seem to lose money. Variance could be a possibility if this had only happened once or twice, but it has really happened about 10 times in the past year.

I have thought about depositing quite a bit more (500BB) next time, but it worries me that I will continue my trend and end up losing much more. When I'm at my local B&M, I also seem to have the same trends, that is, I'll be up 40 BB after 2-3 hours and then lose it all back in the next 3-4 hours. I guess for right now I need to just quit when I'm ahead until I can gain the control to quit when my ability to win is over.

EDIT: Let me add that I have about 70k hands logged at Pokerstars and probably anotjher 5k at the local casino.
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  #7  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: I need help with self control...

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if you don't loosen up after you gain more chips, especially in relation to the others at the table. Keep playing the style that gained you the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO. Thanksgiving day, I won an 18x$55 and 180x$20 on Stars, skyrocketing my BR from $0 to $1400. Then I decided I was going to loosen up and instantly transform into one of those "tricky" players like I see on TV. By the end of the day half the $1400 was gone. Then I tightened up and grinded it out over the next week, finally earning it all back. Amazing how much different my mindset (and play) was from "I just won a bunch of money" to "I'm down, this sucks, I need to start earning this back".
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  #8  
Old 12-09-2005, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: I need help with self control...

This is a tough issue for many people, although it never really was to me, but I will offer some advice anyways:

1. Change how you evaluate yourself

When you're starting out, don't judge your progress or prowess by how much money you make. Seriously, just forget about it. Your ONLY concern is not making money, but rather making the right play each time; improving your poker.

Take each hand in a vaccum, and ask yourself not whether you CAN make money by calling/raising, but rather if you called/raised/bet 100,000 times in that spot, against the same opponents, you'd make money overall. In your example, you 3-bet when you know you're beat and that the other person will call. This is just spewing chips, hoping that this is the 1/100 change a reraise will fold a better hand.

Your reason for making that play is because it CAN work, and you're evaluating yourself based on the wrong metric, money. In your mind if you fold, you lose, if you bet, you MAY win. Winning poker has two components, betting when you have the best of it, but also NOT LOSING when you obviously have the worst of it. Any person/personality can do the first, it comes naturally. It takes a disciplined mind-set that drops the results-oriented kick, and makes the RIGHT play rather than the only one that can make them money on that particular hand. Most times the right play is to fold and lose less money. And then when you're obviously ahead, jam the pot and cash out bigger than you lose when you're behind.

Starting out, if you have to think about calling a raise, don't. Preflop, if you have to think about calling, fold.
On the flop, if you have to think about calling, fold.
On the turn/river, if you're thinking (rationally) about calling one bet, do.

Those are guidlines, in reality, use pot-odds and stick with it. Again, your goal should be making the right play, not the one that has the possibility to make you money. Make the play that would make you rich if you made the same play a million times, not the one that would bankrupt you.

2. If you don't have poker tracker, download it and try it. Even after the trial hands, post your stats. Odds are even at that point you'll see glaring holes in your game, or we will if it's that bad.

3. Winning low limit players play 15-25% of their hands. You should too, maybe even less sincee you like to be aggressive. Start by decreasing the number of hands you play (e.g. top 20%). It's tough to do, but it's another way to hold your tilt in check. Make a guideline, and stick with it thick and thin. You should be doing this on all streets, not just preflop, but it's easier to start here. Then over time, post your hand histories, not for plays in which you had monsters or got sucked out on, but any play where you didn't know what the RIGHT play was, win or lose the hand. We'll give you advice, and then you'll adjust your guidelines.

4. I can't stress enough, change how you evaluate yourself as a poker player. Not on how many pots or plays you win money with, but on how many plays/pots you make the correct descision for your game, your competition, your position, the board texture, and then your cards. If you're not thinking of these things every hand, you need to start posting and reading posts, to look at other people's thought processes in making the right call. Your goal is not making money, it is becoming the best, most consistent poker playing machine you can be. The money will come.

5. Everyone has bad luck. Poker has a huge luck component, and part of the skill is managing that luck, which means holding steady to the right plays when your luck is down. The best players in the world suffer huge up and down swings, but they don't give on themeselves or change their game when the downswings occur. You shouldn't either.

6. Bad beats happen to good people. When it happens to you, just laugh it off knowing you made the correct play, and that over time you will take the fish's money. After all, were it not for the river, there'd be no fish.

7. All of these things require that you never play with money you can't afford to lose. Look at your first deposits as both entertainment fees and training fees. Honestly, you should be able to see all of your deposits that way. If you can't, you shouldn't be playing. Needing money back is a direct conflict of interest to playing correctly. Play right, post hands, improve your strategy, the money part will take care of itself.

Good luck
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  #9  
Old 12-09-2005, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: I need help with self control...

Yes, I play about 22-28% of hands depending on the session. I don't tend to be only aggresive, only when I start losing... I am going to get PokerTracker and play a little bit and see how it goes.
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  #10  
Old 12-09-2005, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: I need help with self control...

Very good post OOGO.
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