Too Passive with KK?

fundmyhabit · #1 09-29-2005, 01:42 AM

No reads only been at the table for about 2 orbits. What's my line here on the turn? Folding seems wrong, but the pot isn't too big if I give up now.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

#2 09-29-2005, 01:45 AM

He donks the flop with an A in most cases.

You have hidden outs against 2p, not to mention the large possibly of being ahead.

Call down.

TomBrooks · #3 09-29-2005, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What's my line here on the turn? Folding seems wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
A very strong hand would likely checkraise or check/call the turn and checkraise or donk the river if he feared you wouldn't bet there. Maybe he was planning on calling a turn bet so he decided to bet out and call instead which is usually a better play. Maybe he was planning to fold to a raise. But who knows? It's hard to say without knowing anything about the player.

thesharpie · #4 09-29-2005, 03:22 AM

I either fold or raise, not sure which is best.

Shillx · #5 09-29-2005, 03:37 AM

I either fold or raise

I can understand folding here, but I don't quite get the idea behind a raise. What exactly does it do for us in this spot?

a) We have a small pot. We don't really care if he folds a 5-outer as long as he will put at least one bet in with it on the river.

b) If we get 3-bet we lose the chance to spike a king.

c) If he is bluffing he will just fold.

If we are raising here, it is for value. So if he just calls, we need to bet the river as well. I don't see how this can be the best plan here.

Brad

Jefzter · #6 09-29-2005, 03:37 AM

I don’t think I would have folded here. Villain only checked and then just called on the flop so I’m not putting him on an A.

Not sure why villain would wake up on the turn either, I can’t see him having 2, 5 and calling a raise preflop. If he had a pair of 4’s I can’t see him calling the flop bet.

Even though you have only been at the table for 2 orbits, I think I would have at least called if not raised on the turn unless this was the first pot that villain had been in for the 20+ hands you have been there.

thesharpie · #7 09-29-2005, 04:02 AM

My thinking behind raising the turn:

a) Fold a 5 outer, probably not worth it since as you said the pot is small and he's probably putting 1BB in on the river. Do you find a river value bet if he checks?

b) Maybe get an ace to fold. When this happens it's huge, but I'm thinking it doesn't happen often at 2/4.

c) Charge a semibluff. Does a semi bluff usually fire another barrel on the river when they miss here?

As far as just folding out a bluff, I think if we're ahead villain is more likely to have a piece than be flat out bluffing, still a factor though.

To sum it up, if he'll bet the busted draws on the river, and he's paying off 1BB on the river with a 5 outer, then it makes no sense to raise if he's not folding an ace, since we just give up the chance to spike a king when 3 bet, or even make an incorrect fold if he has something like 34.

ThaHero · #8 09-29-2005, 04:36 AM

I'm not sure how things go at 2/4, but I know when playing .50/1, a standard play is for the fishies to donk bet their Ace on a blank turn. It's happened to my Kings and Queens numerous times, and I don't understand for the life of me why they always make that play.

thesharpie · #9 09-29-2005, 04:38 AM

I think the turn raise is only good against a decent player, since he might fold an ace, might not pay off a 5 outer on the river, and might not fire again with busted draw, although not a great player if he knows you'd make this play. The thing is a decent player isn't making a gaybet like this, and if he is he's hoping to 3 bet so forget about it being good against even a decent player.

We can class him as most likely either LPP or LAG, and we should be either calling down or folding, I'm leaning towards folding since LPP seems more likely.

I guess there's a slim chance he's weak tight looking for an excuse to get away from his ace, this looks to be the only player type where raising is the best choice, but then against raising is always best choice against a weak tight, isn't it? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

ChuckyB · #10 09-29-2005, 06:08 AM

Without knowing much about the opponent I check/call to the river. He shows A4s...I die a little.

A4s is the only thing that makes much sense. He makes a marginal-to-bad call for one small bet. Won't bet his ace on the flop because it's pretty weak...certainly wouldn't beat a pre-flop raiser's ace. Then hits two pair and goes to town.