Is there a single person who would lay this hand down? - Page 2

JrJordan · #11 08-26-2004, 05:04 PM

The typical PPer is not going to push when he makes his set. 98% of the time it will be a smooth call on the flop followed by a min-checkraise on the turn. You can almost set your watch to it. I would call.

PoBoy321 · #12 08-26-2004, 06:39 PM

Believe me, it was fine that you didn't fold your Aces. I LOVE a guy who never folds Aces. I always seem to make a lot of money when they have them. Seeing the 78J, you've gotta be worried, more about the JJ than the 88, but if he moves in on you, you have to figured you're beat. I mean, the straight possibility is out there, and you've gotta figure that no one would call 7.50 with 9Ts, but there are people out there who would. I know that it's hard to lay down your AA, and even if he was moving in on a bluff and you thought you had the best hand, if you keep calling, you WON'T have the best hand most of the time.

PoBoy321 · #13 08-26-2004, 06:46 PM

Actually, just to add to what I just said, I can understand why he moved in with his set. If he figured you for overcards, he knows that you're only about 10% to beat him, but he doesn't want you to outdraw him with that 9:1 shot for free. He realized that you were on a draw (for those two aces) and made you pay for it big time. It's a hard read to make, but if you sit back and don't call immediately like you did, you can make it.

RoyalSampler · #14 08-26-2004, 06:49 PM

He payed $7.50 preflop to play with me, that beams high pockets or AK to me. As I demonstrated further up in this thread a 50% confidence in high pockets is enough to break even, anything more is +EV.

So I put it to you, without your dry sarcasm, are you > 50% sure he called 25BB with JJ or 88's? Because that's what a fold is saying. I think you give far too much credit to your opponents. This is not a move for a $2/1 table, but at 50c/25c it is +EV.

RoyalSampler · #15 08-26-2004, 07:03 PM

I say again, who are you playing against!? I'm on a 50c UB table, I called an all in last night when someone holding 72s hit a 7 (second pair) on the flop!!! Again I had AA. I suppose I should have folded? His stack was far shorter, so it wasn't much of a story. I appreciate your comments, but mate, don't patronize. Attitude doesn't add to the board.

VeraN · #16 08-26-2004, 07:11 PM

I don't think you could have folded there, it just sucks that he made the set. I would've put him on KK, QQ, AK suited as well.. the fact that he goes all in after the flop would make me think that he is trying to scare me away from the pot as a bluff with his AK. Like others have said normally people would slow play their set.

-http://www.pokernoob.com

cornell2005 · #17 08-26-2004, 07:19 PM

no, moving in with a set at these stakes is horrid, and folding aces here is just as bad. there is nothing to debate

PoBoy321 · #18 08-26-2004, 08:22 PM

My point is this. I've seen people online play far worse hands than 88 with 15xBB online. You HAVE to have respect for your opponents online, because you can never be sure what they have. I agree that the all-in in early position seems like a bluff, but read some Brunson and one of the first things that he says is that you have to have a much better hand to call a raise than to make it. Secondly, bluffing from an early position is a VERY gutsy move, especially when you're putting all your chips in jeopardy. You HAVE to show some respect for that. Like I said, it's a hard laydown, but it's a laydown you can make, and sometimes should.

Now, depending on the size of the stacks before the flop, which I see as being about $100, the additional $5 isn't necessarily enough to drive out 77, 88 or JJ, because even if he thinks he's up against big pockets, he's only putting up another 5% of his stack at a 10% chance at flopping his set, and if he thinks he's up against big pockets, which he was, he has amazing implied odds if he flops his set if he realizes that he could potentially take everything you have, which he did, if you weren't willing to give up your big pockets, which you weren't.

Say that I'm sarcastic, I am. Say that I give too much credit to my opponents, maybe I do. My point is that sometimes you have to, and sometimes you have to give up big pockets. By not slowplaying his set, he made you think that he was bluffing, and forced you to call.

Furthermore, I have a few questions for you. If he HAD slowplayed his set, would you still have let go of your Aces? Is there any situation where you would let go of aces? Would you EVER read someone for two pair or a set? From what I've heard here, the answer is no, and aside from this particular situation, I'm saying that THAT is your problem. You have to realize that sometimes your aces WILL be beat and that at that point, you were putting up 100% of your stack to protect 15% of it. Even if he was bluffing, can you stand to take that loss in exchange for letting him bluff at you when you DO have him beat? In the long run, it is certainly the right move to let people think that they can bluff at you in order for you to let THEM move in when YOU have the best hand.

I'll say I'm sorry for being sarcastic, but I was using it to illustrate my point. There are a lot of players out there who will NEVER give up Aces, and they will eventually lose a lot of money when they get aces because of their unwillingness to give them up, even when they DO have the best hand, because like a good friend and a great poker player once told me, you'll never be a great player if you're unwilling to sometimes laydown the best hand.

JohnG · #19 08-26-2004, 10:42 PM

Generally, only the most weak tight donkey would fold AA to that push. Heck, if you normally fold AA there, then any opponent you re-raise could call and push in on flop with any 2. And in general, you will be bullied a lot.

Normally, on these ratios, a big hand would not bet allin and give you the opportunity to get away as cheap as possible.

JohnG · #20 08-26-2004, 10:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would you EVER read someone for two pair or a set? From what I've heard here, the answer is no, and aside from this particular situation, I'm saying that THAT is your problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

On these ratios post flop, it's not really a problem. Even moreso headsup.

There's only room for a bet and raise before all the money is in the middle. If you think that's enough to be sure aces are beat, and can tell the difference between a set or top pair/overpair type hands, then you're a better player than anyone I know.