Party 15 66 bb

[mmcd]

If I'm missing something please tell me, but I think this was a bad play.

You are missing the fact that the poster likely has me beat (with a quite shitty hand), and the button probably doesn't.

Nothing personal, but the 3-bet or fold preflop thing is bordering on sheer ridiculousness. Calling is clearly best preflop.

[Bartholow]

Folding preflop would be a HUGE mistake. 3-betting has certain advantages but the call should be standard.

[ike]

A9, K9, Q9, J9, T9, A8, A7, overpairs, any set on the board...
A better question might be what can he possibly have made it to the river with that you do beat? Failing to put in another raise with many of these hands is weak, but I don't see what else you think he has here. Having confidence that an unknown player in the party 15 will always raise holdings that beat you in this hand is irrational. We play this game precisely because players frequently fail to make such raises.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing personal, but the 3-bet or fold preflop thing is bordering on sheer ridiculousness. Calling is clearly best preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to have to explain this to me. You obviously don't have enough opponents -- aka implied odds -- to justify drawing to a set, so your strongest play is to narrow the field and hope your pair holds up. And the action so far BEGS for the 3-bet for just that reason. You say MP has "quite a shitty hand." Well, that means (1) he still could well have 2 overcards to your itty-bitty pair, in which case you don't want him hanging around, and (2) a 3-bet should get his MP-posting ass out of the hand entirely. As for the button, three-betting isolates what's probably a steal raise, and wins you this hand uncontested either when you bet the flop or when you bet the turn. Your mistake preflop cost you the hand.

Instead of calling contrary opinions "sheer ridiculousness" you need to them some thought. Who knows, you might actually learn something.

[etizzle]

you have no idea what you are talking about. You are the one that needs to learn something.

Saying he should 3 bet or fold preflop isnt bordering on rediculous, I'll give you that. It is rediculous for a certainty.

i like the river play btw. Pretty surprising he had you beat. The chances to pull this play off are pretty few and far between, but I think this is one of the better spots for it. Nice hand.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
you have no idea what you are talking about. You are the one that needs to learn something.

Saying he should 3 bet or fold preflop isnt bordering on rediculous, I'll give you that. It is rediculous for a certainty.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm the one that needs to learn something why don't you teach me? Why can't anyone provide an explanation for why calling is better? Please -- pretty please -- tell me why I'm wrong.

FWIW, I've been a member of this forum for almost two years and this kind of garbage is why I rarely post anymore. Rather than promoting discussion, differing viewpoints are attacked with an unthinking herd mentality and usually without any explanation whatsoever. "Rediculous" is not an argument or an explanation. Hell, it's not even a word.

I do just fine playing Party 15-30 -- in fact, considerably better over the past 4 months (around 40,000 hands) than the 3 BB/100 benchmark that people around here consider top-notch results. I'm obviously doing something right. I'm not so arrogant -- as some obviously are -- to think that I don't have a lot to learn, but I damn well deserve more respect than your response gives.

[bugstud]

so a post, limp, button raise, you're the sb in a 2/3 structure. You'd rather try to play 66 3-4-5 ways for 3 bets rather than 4-5 ways for 2 bets, putting in 1.3 SBs?

[hockey1]

If it's 5 ways I'd definitely just call, but I think it's more likely to be 3 or 4, which is exactly the wrong number to play 66. In light of the action to Hero there's a reasonably good chance that for the modest investment of one more SB Hero can get this HU vs a player who could well have been raising pretty light, and represent a big hand which will increase the likelihood of a fold on later streets to boot. IMHO that's the way to go.

[esspo]

When action is on hero there are 5 sb's in the pot. As a general rule when the pot's been raised and you are in the BB with a pkt pair you only need 1 caller to get the right price to try to hit a set.

As for raising, I don't think its as ridiculous as others have said because poster will likely fold and the c/o probably has a very weak hand, but I do think its definately -EV. C/o may not fold simply becuase money has already been invested. In addition, with a small pkt pair, hero is either a small favorite or a big dog against the button, which means that heads up, button takes home the cheese over the long run. Position is what makes an isolation play with a small pkt pair marginally profitable. Here, if button misses the flop, he gets away cheaply. If the flop hits the button, hero pays full price becuase hero has to keep firing to protect his small pkt pair. Plus, button may get trixie and semi bluff raise the turn when there will definately be overcards to hero's pkt pair.

Calling, with the intention of check-raising a favorable flop, is the best play.

[Bartholow]

I think the problem is that your chances of getting this headsup are not as high as you think. Too often you will be _out of position_ 3 ways if you 3-bet preflop. Meanwhile, you have very good odds to hit your set if you just call. It is a good instinct to try to think about how the hand will play out later, but this doesn't mean just trying to eliminate players because pairs hold up better with less people. In this case, by calling you set up either a set in a decent field, which is great, or if the flop comes favorable in other ways you can checkraise the flop to try to then get headsup vs. probable big cards. While your 3-bet does give you some chance to get headsup immediately, it often means you are playing in a 3 or even 4 way pot, probably having to bet the flop no matter what comes, and having no idea where you are at.