Middle pair against a loose passive and an unknown.

wildzer0 · #1 10-25-2005, 01:12 PM

I'm working on refining my game and plugging some leaks, and this hand is sort of a textbook example of a tough type of hand for me. MP2 is a loose passive, MP1 is unknown. I'm a bit lost on the river. Did I miss a value bet here or was checking the right move? Also, hypothetically, if I was checkraised on the turn, what's my line? call/fold the river unimproved or call a river bet?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

gharp · #2 10-25-2005, 01:18 PM

There might be a smidgen of value in betting this river, but I don't hate checking behind. That's a pretty bad card to see, since it completes two of the draws that were there on the flop.

I would definitely call a turn check-raise and then (probably) fold the river UI.

MrWookie47 · #3 10-25-2005, 01:19 PM

Nice hand. Two of the things you were hoping they were calling you with (flush draw, and 98) just came in. Actually, anyone who had an OESD on the flop is now beating you. I don't think these two guys will both show you Tx and 4x compared to the times that one of them has Jx, Qx, or missed a river c/r w/ a draw that hit.

lautzutao · #4 10-25-2005, 01:22 PM

I don't think there's any value here in a river bet. What is calling us here that we beat? I think OP played this as well as could be asked.

numeri · #5 10-25-2005, 01:25 PM

I call the turn C/R with maybe 6 outs. We have 2 T's, 3 A's, and 4 K's, but the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] puts 3 to a flush, and we may already be behind a straight so the T's and A's might be dead. I fold the river UI vs. the C/R as well.

The way you played it looks fine. I see no value in a river bet, but I like everything else. This could easily be a weak J, Q, or FD, but it could also be something like J9, 88, A4, who knows. You'll win this fairly often, but not often enough to bet the river.

gharp · #6 10-25-2005, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's any value here in a river bet. What is calling us here that we beat? I think OP played this as well as could be asked.

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Would you check-behind if you were heads-up with the loose-passive player? What if you knew both of them were loose-passive?

lautzutao · #7 10-25-2005, 01:45 PM

If it were heads up I'd probably, but as the board is we're pushing it 3-way. They're going to call with Qx and Jx a good amount of the time and not let us know about it. And though highly unlikely, Unknown is trapping with a flush.

My question for you is what do you think they're calling with here on a 3-flush board and 2 overcards that we're ahead of? Both have PP's, A-high, Bottom pair?

gharp · #8 10-25-2005, 01:53 PM

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My question for you is what do you think they're calling with here on a 3-flush board and 2 overcards that we're ahead of? Both have PP's, A-high, Bottom pair?

[/ QUOTE ]
98, 97, A4, K4, small pocket pairs, KT, T9, T8, 88-22 that they don't know how to fold, 99 that they didn't know how to raise, A-high, etc.

I'm not saying a bet is mandatory here, just that there might be some value. Against the loose-passive alone I would definitely bet. If I knew they were both loose-passive, I'd probably bet too. If I knew one of them was decent I wouldn't bet. Against an unknown I think it's close, that's all.

numeri · #9 10-25-2005, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying a bet is mandatory here, just that there might be some value. Against the loose-passive alone I would definitely bet. If I knew they were both loose-passive, I'd probably bet too. If I knew one of them was decent I wouldn't bet. Against an unknown I think it's close, that's all.

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Can you call a check/raise? The river is a great scare card, and I'd probably have to call but not like it. In that case, any slim value we have in a bet is mitigated by the fact that we have to call the C/R.

The play here is to check behind, IMO.

gharp · #10 10-25-2005, 02:18 PM

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Can you call a check/raise? The river is a great scare card, and I'd probably have to call but not like it. In that case, any slim value we have in a bet is mitigated by the fact that we have to call the C/R.

The play here is to check behind, IMO.

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I don't see myself calling a check-raise. I don't think you have to either -- I don't see too many people bluff check-raising the river. If they just bet out, that's a different story. But when they check to you, it becomes more likely that you're ahead.

Meh, I don't know, you guys have got me thinking that checking behind is probably best here. But I'm still betting against one LP villain.