Fun for everyone (hand reading, outs counting, play-making)

Aaron W. · #1 07-12-2005, 12:33 AM

Here are the reads:

SB is a somewhat timid weak-tight player, playing at about 35/5. I've been playing with him for 60 hands or so, and all of his bets/raises have been good hands (top pair or better) and he likes his fold button. His play has been very readable: Limps on the button, bet-calls AT5 flop, calls a T turn, raises a 4 river. The bet on the flop means at least top pair; the call on the turn plus the raise on the river means that the ten doesn't scare him; therefore, he has AT or 55, with an outside chance of TT that he didn't raise preflop.

BB (50/7) is a loose player preflop and not particularly aggressive postflop. He has some hand-reading and is certainly reacting to more than just his cards. He'll call down with somewhat weak hands (as weak as bottom pair) if he suspects you're bluffing (check the flop, bet a brick on the turn). He'll also call down with decent hands (TPNK) in the face of aggression. He might be throwing in a pickup bet every now and then if nobody seems interested in the pot.

Hero has been very aggressive preflop, stats at the end of the session read 32/25. He had been pushing the table around for a while, but the table texture shifted a few orbits ago. Now he's readjusting to a slightly less aggressive game with the arrival of BB and another player who is also calling more than folding.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, MP folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero...

For the newbies:

1) What range of hands does SB have?
2) How many outs do you think I have on average?
3) What is the right play based on this information?

Here's some more fun things to consider for the slightly more advanced:
4) What does BB hold?
5) How do BB's holdings affect my outs?
6) What is the right play based on the extra information?

And one that I hope will lead to a good discussion (DON'T BE RESULTS ORIENTED! USE ONLY THE INFORMATION BEFORE MY FLOP ACTION!):

7) What are some alternate lines from the flop? Include some discussion about the resulting turn play.

Entity · #2 07-12-2005, 01:05 AM

I don't like your flop raise at all.

On the turn, you have 5 outs against AA (6), 2 outs against AK (12), and 0 outs against KK (1). It probably doesn't matter much whether you call or fold as you'll be breaking even after implied odds.

Rob

Aaron W. · #3 07-12-2005, 01:09 AM

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I don't like your flop raise at all.

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Do you call with the intent of calling down? Or are you peeling to fold on the turn?

Edit:

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On the turn, you have 5 outs against AA (6), 2 outs against AK (12), and 0 outs against KK (1).

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There are only 8 ways AK can happen since 2 kings are out. Why do you give only two outs in that case, but 5 against AA?

Entity · #4 07-12-2005, 01:11 AM

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I don't like your flop raise at all.

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Do you call with the intent of calling down? Or are you peeling to fold on the turn?

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I call and reserve the right to re-evaluate. If he won't bet QQ on the turn, then you fold. If he will, you call, and re-evalute on the river.

Rob

SCfuji · #5 07-12-2005, 01:44 AM

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timid weak-tight player

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hey aaron. given your read i dont like a raise on the flop.
i would either call call call or call call raise/fold. i dont like it when timid players bet into me because i usually lose.

Schwartzy61 · #6 07-12-2005, 02:05 AM

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1) What range of hands does SB have?

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I would think you're staring at AA, KK, AK, and possibly KQs
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2) How many outs do you think I have on average?

[/ QUOTE ] Not many don't feel much like math at this point but I would say you're hoping for a T most of the time which puts you at around 3.
[ QUOTE ]
3) What is the right play based on this information?

[/ QUOTE ] Call the flop, don't see what a raise accomplishes here? According to your read you can't be ahead and you aren't gonna knock out BB who has already called and unless MP is a retard he's gonna call with a draw to diamonds. As for the turn I'm probably gonna fold.
[ QUOTE ]
4) What does BB hold?

[/ QUOTE ] Sure seems like diamonds to me. He could also be waiting to strike with a set...
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5) How do BB's holdings affect my outs?

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Well if he's playing diamonds that really knocks any of those out. You could be down to just two 10s. If he has a set you are drawing dead. I would say overall this hand is pretty screwed at this point.
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6) What is the right play based on the extra information?

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Well certainly not raise the flop. Honestly I don't play 6 max and this is 5 handed and I don't see how raising KTs UTG was so great pre flop either. As for the turn seeing BB continue to call in this situation you figure he has the diamonds also SB continuing to bet obviously says he has a K or beats a K either way you have maybe two outs and most likely none so it seems like a fold.

Aaron W. · #7 07-12-2005, 02:35 AM

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On the turn, you have 5 outs against AA (6), 2 outs against AK (12), and 0 outs against KK (1).

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There are only 8 ways AK can happen since 2 kings are out. Why do you give only two outs in that case, but 5 against AA?

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Whoops. Trying to do too much at once.

Aaron W. · #8 07-12-2005, 02:40 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
timid weak-tight player

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hey aaron. given your read i dont like a raise on the flop.
i would either call call call or call call raise/fold. i dont like it when timid players bet into me because i usually lose.

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The thinking at the time was he could have AA-JJ or AK here. A quick count gives 12 hands that I lead, 21 hands that I chase. I can play donkey in the middle and suck extra bets out of him those times when I'm chasing. (I almost certainly am not in last place right now.)

adsman · #9 07-12-2005, 03:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
timid weak-tight player

[/ QUOTE ]

hey aaron. given your read i dont like a raise on the flop.
i would either call call call or call call raise/fold. i dont like it when timid players bet into me because i usually lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thinking at the time was he could have AA-JJ or AK here. A quick count gives 12 hands that I lead, 21 hands that I chase. I can play donkey in the middle and suck extra bets out of him those times when I'm chasing. (I almost certainly am not in last place right now.)

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Based on your excellent read I think that QQ or JJ are very unlikely here. Given that if you want to play donkey in the middle, why raise the flop? Either call and have a look at the turn or raise and fold to the 3 bet.

deepsquat · #10 07-12-2005, 04:05 AM

I put SB on KK, AK or AA, i xant really see him playing any other hand this way.

BB looks like hes on a draw, and the only real draw is a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw so i put him on Ax [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] but a high kicker, maybe A10s

I think at best you have 3- 10 outs and 2- K outs but i cant see you winning this hand with TP. BB's holdings may make the 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] a tainted out for you.

Based on this info id call the turn as i dont figure to be best, therfore charging BB is pointless.
Id call the turn but wont overcall river UI.

I like the flop raise as it gives you an idea where you are as you say that SB is weaktight, i cant see him 3betting an underpair to a K and it also eliminates MP and potentially BB