Is this really bad? 5/10 6max

[Girchuck]

you are getting better than 6-1 pot odds. Your hands has potential to flop either a good draw or a vulnerable top pair. If you defend this type of hands in the BB against a raise, you must defend here as well. Otherwise, you are inviting everybody to 3-bet you. Makes it much harder to steal when SB and button will start 3-betting you often.

[fyodor]

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I like what you've done with your hair. It matches your skirt very well.

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That cracked me up.

Anyhow as someone else said, your example hands aren't marginal in my playbook. I open raise those from the CO as well. I would NEVER fold them for one more bet from the Button.

The Button's 3 bet always appears strong but having been the button I can say for sure that appearances can be decieving. I don't know how many times I whiffed completely on the Button after a 3 bet preflop, but the CO checked to my apparent strength on the flop and my follow through bet took it down.

[IlliniRyRy]

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I'm not saying I fold this preflop. But it's closer than everyone is giving credit for. Basically you don't have the iniative against a hand that is likely to have you dominated. You'll fold the best hand sometimes when the flop misses both of you. You'll lose a lot when you flop a second best ace. And you'll win a little when you flop top pair. It's not a real good spot.

Krishan

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Exactly. I certainly understand the table image aspect of it, but I don't think it comes up enough to present that much of a problem. When you do decide to play back at people after making this fold, they'll give you more credit for a hand. These people saying it's a very very bad play are mistaken IMO. You get killed in these situations when you're playing your crap low pair to the river and it's no good. I think the preflop fold is probably -EV, but not by much. And thanks for the skirt comments, those were cute.

[mindflayer]

Just think of yourself as being in the BB against a very tight player who you know raises only 6% of hands..88 or better AK or AQs
now instead of only $17 in the pot there is $32 do you make the call now?

[Girchuck]

Even if the tight one only raises with AA, my 89s or JTo is still better than 6-1 underdog. A2s is getting crushed though.

[Scotch78]

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You get killed in these situations when you're playing your crap low pair to the river and it's no good.

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There are some major flaws in your thinking here. First off, there are now over 6 SBs in the pot. Under all but the worst of domination your equity makes folding at least a 1 SB mistake. Calling is at most a 1 SB error. Even without the metagame considerations, this makes folding dumb poker. The second, more devastating mistake, is that you don't seem to understand the difference between pre-flop and post-flop play.

Scott

[Scotch78]

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certainly understand the table image aspect of it, but I don't think it comes up enough to present that much of a problem

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Once upon a time I capped pre-flop and then check-folded the flop. I've only done this once, and I hadn't done anything particularly skirtish in that session, yet I had to leave the table soon after because all of my pre-flop raises were suddenly getting bet into on the flop.

Scott

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
Against these players, I think you can make a play based on the board and your hand. I'd be more inclined to do it (when you hit a piece obviously) when you have an A, or when there's a board you think may have missed the other guy, either raggy, or with one high rank card--if he doesn't have that one high rank card, he'll fear you do and be more inclined to give up.


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huh? no board,they guy has already folded preflop to the 3 bet,

he is saying he knows he will already miss the board, i think

[balkii]

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I'm not saying I fold this preflop. But it's closer than everyone is giving credit for. Basically you don't have the iniative against a hand that is likely to have you dominated. You'll fold the best hand sometimes when the flop misses both of you. You'll lose a lot when you flop a second best ace. And you'll win a little when you flop top pair. It's not a real good spot.

Krishan

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I take issue with several points in your post.

1- you are by no means "likely dominated." a non-maniac button who is aware of the idea of you raising lighter as you get closer to the button can 3-bet a variety of hands here.

2- how would you lose a lot when you flop a second best ace? my default line is to play this hand pretty passively.

3- also you should win a fair amount when you flop top pair, as often you can just play possum after the flop and they will bet your hand for you.

folding here is a mistake.

[bunky9590]

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I like what you've done with your hair. It matches your skirt very well.

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His shoes probably match his purse as well.


Dude, don't fold for one more bet PF, thats just sick, I'll call with any 2 I raised with at that point getting 6.5 :1

Oh yeah and if he keeps it up start caping his ass PF instead of calling. Also call more and checkraise the flop regardless and follow through with a turn bet. You're getting pwned and you really need to stop being such a little bitch about it. Sack up and play some pokah [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]