Flush draw on the turn... take the free card?

silly_monkey · #1 11-26-2005, 02:11 AM

About my tenth hand at the table. UTG seems loose (VP$IP about 40).

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG raises, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (11.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Two questions:

Did I make a big mistake by taking the free card on the turn? With 3 callers and the four to a straight board should I bet here? Without the straight I would have bet here for sure, but I confused about what I should do in this case.

Second, should I go for overcalls on the river or raise?

Holden97 · #2 11-26-2005, 02:28 AM

Am I missing something? You've got the nuts on the river, right? Go ahead and raise.

Other streets, I like your line.

jaxUp · #3 11-26-2005, 02:30 AM

you have a flush on the river (ie why didn't you raise?). Also, I like the turn check

silly_monkey · #4 11-26-2005, 02:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you have a flush on the river (ie why didn't you raise?). Also, I like the turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I was asking if I should just call hoping to get two overcalls or raise, probably just getting one call.

jaxUp · #5 11-26-2005, 03:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I was asking if I should just call hoping to get two overcalls or raise, probably just getting one call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call, you are at most making 3 SB on the river, and usually just 2. Say an average of 2.25. If you raise, you are making at least 2, plus more when one of the other players can't fold a flush. I'd say you make an average of 3BB when raising this river. A full .75BB than calling it. That is why I would raise the river.

#6 11-26-2005, 03:17 AM

Why 3-bet the flop? Is it a free card 3-bet? I'd probably just call the flop raise and bet the turn if checked to (and call a raise if we are check/raised). On the river, I'd check behind if UI.

As the hand was played, I'd take the free card since we might be check/raised. As for the river, I'd raise. I think this will yield a higher long term expectation.

#7 11-26-2005, 03:19 AM

Frist off I like the check on the turn if that would have been the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the river you would have been done. second maybe im way off base here and confused but I thought the ideal of raising your flush draws was to get a freecard if the turn comes bad and build a pot in case you make you flush. By 3 betting it your not really getting a free card do you really think you aces are good I think your out kicked at best here. as far as the river i would raise here I think your going to get callers and maybe even 3 bet by a king high flush or straight.
Sneakychicken

jaxUp · #8 11-26-2005, 03:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why 3-bet the flop? Is it a free card 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about a weHaveEquityToPumpAFlushDrawAgainstThreeOpponents kind of 3-bet?

edit: no gutshot, but still enough equity to raise it up. You lose Sklansky bucks for calling this flop raise big time

#9 11-26-2005, 03:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why 3-bet the flop? Is it a free card 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about a weHaveEquityToPumpAFlushDrawAgainstThreeOpponents kind of 3-bet?

edit: no gutshot, but still enough equity to raise it up. You lose Sklansky bucks for calling this flop raise big time

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah very good point. I thought about this before I posted, but ya know it's good to ask questions and stuff.

Since we have equity, is it smart to bet out on the turn UI? Does the same principle apply, assuming the flop is not capped?

jaxUp · #10 11-26-2005, 03:38 AM

I think we all agree that we are almost certainly behind on the flop. The reason we cap is because we have equity with our flush draw. When the draw does not come in on the turn, our equity drops significantly (like 50%). Hence, we do not have the equity to bet the turn with only three players calling.