Two personal beliefs and their consequences

I knew this was coming [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Luckily I had an answer ready. The intellectual honesty I'm concerned with is more for myself and my thoughts, not for the sake of argument. (That's not to say intellectual honesty isn't also important for argument. It's just not as strict.) So while I disagree with determinism for now, I'll keep an open mind about it.

[Double Down]

Hey guys. Really enjoying this thread. I actually have a good argument on how both free will and determinism can co-exist. But I'm out the door right now! I will post my thoughts later tonight.

Perhaps we have a misunderstanding on what these words mean. Determinism (fatalism) to me is that we cannot make choices. Everything happens because of what has happened. Everything that does happen MUST happen and could not have not happened. Free will means we can make choices. We can choose between two options; things that happen could have not happenend.

[imported_luckyme]

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Determinism (fatalism) to me is that we cannot make choices.

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What ??!! you mean to say that determinism doesn't mean you're very stubborn? No wonder none of your statements made any sense to me.

I'll reread your evidence and logical steps you demonstrated that led you to that belief....

I realize you are joking; none the less.

2 entries found for fatalism.
fa·tal·ism Audio pronunciation of "fatalism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ftl-zm)
n.

1. The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.
2. Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

[imported_luckyme]

I was only joking in the sense that you stumbled into a forum for DEBATING/Discussing ideas. That means it's not a matter of proclamation like graffiti or bumper stickers. You will be questioned and expected to logically lay out your evidence and reasoning.

Not that you HAVE to, it's just seems to be the norm. Saying "I believe X" around here means you're about to have your brain opened up and the connections checked. Nobody seems to be granted omniscient status, not even HE.

Now, get over here on this table ! , luckyme.

[Stu Pidasso]

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Determinism is the theory that all events are influenced by past events. And therefore, if you were to choose not to eat the ice cream, it could be because you were not hungry, or you were trying to prove determinism wrong. No matter what, there is something causing you to not eat the ice cream. By not eating the ice cream does not disprove determinism.

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The OP is expressing the viewpoint that there is no free will. She believes all our actions are the result of biological processes which in turn are simply chemical reactions, which in turn are simply molecues behaving in the manner prescribed by physics. Human diliberation is pointless becuase what ever happens will happen according to the law of physics.

If what the OP is expressing is true than it is possible to accurately predict future events if one has enough knowledge about present and past events as well as a complete understanding of the laws of nature that govern our world. For instance it should be possible to predict the weather with 100% accuracy, but we would need to know when the peruvian yak farts, where it farts, in what direction it farts, how forcefull the fart, etc.

LaPlace's demon should be able to accurately predict wether or not I eat the bowl of ice cream. However the rules of the thought experiment present a problem for the demon. If the demon predicts I will eat the bowl of ice cream, I can simply abstain. If the demon predicts I will not eat the bowl of ice cream, I can chow down. The demon knows this before it makes the prediction. It knows that whatever prediction it makes will be wrong. Since the demon cannot lie it cannot make any prediction at all.

Even with all the knowledge and thought power at the demon's disposal, it simply cannot overcome my ability to change my mind.

Stu

[lastchance]

The argument is not that it overpowers your mind, but simply knows what your mind will do given all possible situations, and will calculate accordingly.

The best counter-argument to this, by far, IMHO, is the very simple Quantam Physics = you cannot predict the future to 100% degree of accuracy, no matter how much information you have available to you.

[Stu Pidasso]

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The argument is not that it overpowers your mind, but simply knows what your mind will do given all possible situations, and will calculate accordingly.


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If the demon knows what my mind will do given this specific situation why can't it make an accurate prediction?

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The best counter-argument to this, by far, IMHO, is the very simple Quantam Physics = you cannot predict the future to 100% degree of accuracy, no matter how much information you have available to you.

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You are trying to show that it is impossible to predict the future even if you have complete information. I am trying to show free will exist.

Stu

[AlwaysWrong]

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I am a fatalist; I do not believe in free will. This is because I feel that my actions are controlled by my brain and my brain in turn is controlled by the laws of physics. There is no room in here for independent action.

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Are your actions really controlled by your brain? Your brain has influence on your actions, but it isn't clear that your brain controls your actions. For instance, if my brain directs my body to leap small buildings, my body will fail to comply. Also, as they say, my brain is often controlled by my penis. (Which is a crude way of denying that I'm some sort of ideal rational actor with a puppet-body controlled by a computer brain.)

Even if my brain has some control over my body, and even if it is at all fair to distinguish between my brain and my body, how exactly does phsyics "control" my brain? Physics is a discipline practiced by physicists. You can't mean that the work of physicists controls my actions. Perhaps what you want to say is that the laws of physics determine what my brain does. The laws of physics are descriptive. They do not have any normative power to control action. What you want to say is that your brain is composed of fundamental particles that act in regular, determined ways. Of course this is an open question given quantum mechanics. But even if our universe is deterministic as you suppose, it doesn't follow that you lack free will.

What would it mean for the universe to be indeterministic? It would mean that to some extent it is impossible IN PRINCIPLE to pretict the future. That is, our ability to predict the cosequences of our actions would be comprimised. As RE Hobart says, indeterminism, rather than granting us free will, actually takes it away, by denying us predictive power.

Try to formulate what you mean by "there is no room for independant action." What practical consequences does this sentence hold? If you consider yourself scientifically-minded, how would you scientifically test this statement? How is it falsifiable? If you cannot do any of these things, how is this belief anything but wasted neurons?

Thinking that you are a puppet controlled by the laws of physics is at best useless. Free will is a lack of power. There is nothing in the laws of physics that denys you the power to make your own choices. There is nothing hindering you from getting out of bed tomorrow or staying in bed, except perhaps fear of getting fired.

Trying to get from a theoretical belief in fatalism or determinism to a practical plan of action is self-defeating. As with extreme skepticism, fatalism offers no rewards for those who subscribe to it. To bend an old example, a skeptic does not pause to consider if the car speeding toward him is real or not; the skeptic just gets out of the way. Similarly, don't ponder whether you have free will or not; just act as if you do. If you don't, then it's not your choice anyways - you'll believe whatever you were fated to.