Unusual spot, KQs flop play

sy_or_bust · #1 11-09-2005, 11:07 PM

BB and Button are ultra-loose (i.e. coldcall J8o) and weird aggressive. Button is just a huge LAG, and BB will lead any made hand or draw versus any # of opponents, getting super aggro with stronger made hands. On top of that, Button is shortstacked and BB appears to be tilting.

This looks fishy, but I think it is good. I'll explain my thinking later if need be. Am I delusional, or is this super-standard?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls $25.50 (All-In), BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

River: (18.52 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 26.52 BB

(I've included the whole hand since it's really sweet and gets at my implied odds).

Entity · #2 11-09-2005, 11:08 PM

I really don't like the flop raise. It's pretty clear you aren't goin anywhere but I don't think raising on this board does much for you in this game.

Rob

xwillience · #3 11-09-2005, 11:25 PM

yeah im not sure what your trying to accomplish with the flop raise... ur not going to get a free card and its not a value or information bet

belloc · #4 11-09-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like the flop raise. It's pretty clear you aren't goin anywhere but I don't think raising on this board does much for you in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this specifically because of the straightening board, or the aggro opponents, or both? I actually have had lots of success lately raising overcards on the flop (especially with backdoor draws) after a bet on my right.

Are you suggesting a fold or a call instead? Seems like here a raise has to be correct, unless you're worried about random aggressiveness from these particular opponents.

Entity · #5 11-09-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like the flop raise. It's pretty clear you aren't goin anywhere but I don't think raising on this board does much for you in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this specifically because of the straightening board, or the aggro opponents, or both? I actually have had lots of success lately raising overcards on the flop (especially with backdoor draws) after a bet on my right.

Are you suggesting a fold or a call instead? Seems like here a raise has to be correct, unless you're worried about random aggressiveness from these particular opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't fold against weird aggressive opponents but you don't want to be putting in 4 bets here if you can help it. Raising is going to allow them to 3-bet draws and made hands and all sorts of stuff when you can't go anywhere.

Rob

flopmonster · #6 11-09-2005, 11:56 PM

i really hate the flop call and i dont really even like a call here too much

belloc · #7 11-10-2005, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You can't fold against weird aggressive opponents but you don't want to be putting in 4 bets here if you can help it. Raising is going to allow them to 3-bet draws and made hands and all sorts of stuff when you can't go anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

S'what I thought. You know when you feel like you've "discovered" a new move (which usually just turns out to be some HPFAP rehash) and you're all excited about it? That's me and the overcard raise play right now.

ghostface · #8 11-10-2005, 12:37 AM

Flop call is good I think.

2.5 outs for overcards
1.5 for bd flush
3.5 for the straight

Getting 7.5:1 this is an easy call, even if you think a raise may follow IMO.

sy_or_bust · #9 11-10-2005, 12:51 AM

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i really hate the flop call and i dont really even like a call here too much

[/ QUOTE ]

Then your poker instincts are way off. You need to consider these situations more carefully.

sy_or_bust · #10 11-10-2005, 01:00 AM

Good point. I'm ahead of BB a fair % of the time, and he will give me a free card option with all worse hands and some better ones, but Button isn't going to fold many better hands, if any.

If Button coldcalls that raise, and BB just calls (both likely results), I'm in the same spot I would be if I call and Button calls, but having bloated the pot with a hand that won't win much unimproved. A call doesn't let BB 3-bet his upper range and encourages Button to tag along with whatever, which isn't awful.

I think a raise works better when BB won't 3-bet much and Button will often give up on the flop. I suppose that wasn't true here, although IMO it's close.