Saved by God?

[spaminator101]

John Calvin said in response to this question, that as we don't know who is among the elect we should still strive to bring all people to Christ.

Also God uses those of us who do missionary or evangelical work to spread the Gospel. It says in Romans: 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

[udontknowmickey]

Wow, what a mess.

Maybe there should be a predestination board. Or a Christians debate board, because it seems like non-Christians really don't care as much about this issue.

To just weigh in on this (since I know my opinion has so much weight and all =p). I pretty much agree with spam.

I believe that Scripture teaches all of what is commonly known as Calvinism and that those teachings are clear throughout Scripture, most notably in Paul's epistle to the Romans.

David - to answer your question:

"Perhaps you are saying that the unsaved are doomed, while the saved can still screw up. So the reason not to screw up is just in case you are among the saved?"

The thing about human nature is that ever since the fall of Adam, sin was introduced into the world. Adam as a representative head for all of humanity plunged the human race into judgement and filled our natures with sin. Thus humans, by nature, tend towards sin and not towards good (This is the Total Depravity).

Thus there is "no shouldn't screw up" because the truth is that you will. From Romans 3 we see Paul making that clear: There is no one righteous, not even one, no one who seeks God.

Chrisnice said
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What does it mean to be one of Gods select and who are they? What do you propose we do about this? You stated somewhere that you found it difficult at first to accept that God actualy hated homosexuals and not merely the sin. Why did you find this difficult? Is it because of predestination and they can not be saved? What should be done with homosexuals here on earth? Are they a lost cause who should be punished?

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I think this question has been answered before. But to be part of the elect simply means that they are chosen in Christ. It doesn't mean that they have done anything special of themselves (like have faith), but it means that God has chosen them, and thus He works in them to have faith in their process of becoming more like Him.

I do believe that God hates homosexuals. God hates sin, and sinners (and I can defend this from Scripture). The punishment for homosexuals (and sinners, of which myself is included) has already been leveled. God has given them up to their passions (Romans 1) and their ungodly thoughts. God's punishment for our sin is to give us up to our sin.

You are correct, reformed theology goes beyond TULIP. I believe R.C. Sproul has an excellent book "What is Reformed Theology" which I would recommend if you were interested in learning more about it. For some free resources online, I suggest www.monergism.com.

Brenner Hayes wrote:

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"spaminator101, you wrote "God chose whom he would save before the foundations of the earth. He does save some and not others. He does this to make his glory and power known to those of whom he has saved."

Please explain to me how this "glory" is shown. By your logic, let's say that I'm one of these lucky ones who was born with the "saved" Willy Wonka golden ticket already in hand. Now let's say my family members who all lead very kind altruistic lives are all born with "not saved" tickets. As one of the saved ones, I may certainly see this god as powerful, but I wouldn't find him glorious. Not in the least. I'd find him incredibly unjust and arbitrary.

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But now we're looking to an outside authority in order to determine what "just" and "right" is. If we trust the Bible to be true, we acknowledge God, and all He does, as our definition of justice and righteous, then there is no problem.

This also assumes that it is possible to lead "good" lives apart from God's saving grace. But we know (once again, from Scripture) that without faith it is impossible to please God.

zabt wrote

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If God has pre-selected those that will be saved, what is the sense in missionary work or proselytizing?


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God has pre-selected those that will be saved, but He has also decreed that He will use some means to achieve that ends. The means He has chosen for the vast majority (Paul being one possible exception) is through preaching and evangelism (which I believe should consist of the same information, though the presentation may be different).

Hope this helps. The Christian worldview is consistant. It is merely us as humans that are inconsistant when applying things.

[udontknowmickey]

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1) It's Israel.

The el is very important because it stands for Elohim if I recall correctly, and you will see many names of humans and angels in the Old Testament that have el on the end usually meaning "<something> of God".

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Cool! I never knew that.

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2) Although as a Christian you believe the Calvinist view of "Predestination" it's important to note that not all Christians believe this, in fact most Christian sects don't.(that doesn't mean it is not true though, merely debateable)

It's important to remember to state what you particularly believe in regards to a faith when you are speaking to those who are of various beliefs, and not let your personal interpretation speak for an entire religion.


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It is true that agreement does not necessarily denote truth, but it seems silly to be all humble about something that they believe is clearly taught in Scripture. Most people don't believe in Predestination mostly because they assume otherwise, not because they are convinced by Scripture. John Wesley was an exception, but people like him are rare nowadays.

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3) The 'Once saved, always saved' I believe is pretty much correct, however the Book of Revelations makes it pretty clear whoever accepts the Mark of the Beast is doomed. (as recieving the Mark is blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit - which is unforgiveable)


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Thus in order for both to be true (that once God has chosen someone, He will not lose him/her and whoever receives the mark of the beast is doomed) all those who God has chosen will not receive the mark of the beast.

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I also am not sure if a person 'moves away from God' that they were "never saved to begin with". Christianity teaches only God knows the nature of his relationship with each individual and thus it is important not to judge others on how we see it.


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Is it wrong to judge as God judges when He says in 1 John 2:19?

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

You are correct in that a relationship with God is between them and God, but that doesn't mean He hasn't spoken regarding that status.

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Yet, from all that, the wise ones will say "I think what God is trying to say here is", and not deal in absolutes such as 'if this, then this, so that's that'. (this way of acting IMHO is what is wrong with organized religion)


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This amused me greatly. Do you think you are correct about what is wrong with organized religion? Shouldn't you just say that this is just your view?

[jordanx]

This might sound like it was ripped from Pulp Fiction, but it's relevant:

It's not important whether God actually saved the woman from the flood, what is important is that she felt the touch of God.

In reality, God may or may not exist, but Christians believe He does because they feel His touch. When they look around they see His presence.

Maybe you don't believe in God now but someday you will. Some die-hard Christians might become Athiests in the future.

Christianity is a chosen perspective. It makes no difference if it is right or wrong, or if God really exists or doesn't.

It's not illogical for the woman to think God saved her in this instance because there is no definitive set of logical behavior patterns established by God. The woman also does not need to speculate about God's intentions or motives.

[benkahuna]

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When they are saved, God heard their call and responded by showing mercy on a faithful Christian. When they die, it was all part of God's greater plan and there's some significant reason he had for it. When someone else is saved, God took mercy on them anyway, and if he dies- he should have put his faith in Jesus.

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Completely tautoligical. He has no accountability whatsoever. This master plan seems to come at a very high price in unnecessary waste and misery and humanity seems dreadfully obtuse in learning lessons from its previous experiences.

Another one I like. He only gives us as much burden as we can handle. Yeah, except for the people that have nervous breakdowns or commit suicide because they can't handle their lives.

I think humans need to believe in something, some purpose. However, I think it could be done, even if that purpose is Christian belief, without so many shallow aphorisms and notions.

Another good one: The lord helps those that helps themselves.

spaminator101 & udontknowmickey,

You both say that we are already saved or not saved and that this is decided in stone and unchangable. Ok, I understand your position so far. Here's where you lose me.

You also seem to imply that it matters somehow if people spread the good word about your Jesus. Why is this again? You haven't been clear to me yet.

And make sure that you address this following question in your answer. According to you guys, today, I am certainly either saved or unsaved. I don't know which but god does and god will not change his mind. So I can either rape and pillage today, or become a missionary for Jesus, it doesn't matter in the least to the issue of if I will be saved or not. Am I understanding you correctly?

[xniNja]

I thought I already explained my post was sardonic.

[spaminator101]

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And make sure that you address this following question in your answer. According to you guys, today, I am certainly either saved or unsaved. I don't know which but god does and god will not change his mind. So I can either rape and pillage today, or become a missionary for Jesus, it doesn't matter in the least to the issue of if I will be saved or not. Am I understanding you correctly?

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pretty much,
You could be the worst person to ever roam the earth and later become a Christian.

[spaminator101]

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You also seem to imply that it matters somehow if people spread the good word about your Jesus. Why is this again? You haven't been clear to me yet.

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you lost me too,
What exactly do you want an explanation of?

[NotReady]

This is an excellent example. It is often expressed theologically as "God ordains both the ends and the means".