KK when Ace hits the turn

mrwatson23 · #1 06-28-2005, 08:54 PM

I don't really like how I played this hand. I didn't want to give a free card on the turn in case MP1 had a flush draw, plus, he seemed like a typical Party player, so I thought there was a good chance he would have raised with a decent Ace pre-flop. Should I have bet and then folded to a raise? The only thing that worries me about that is that the Ace is such a good bluff/scare card, that he could be making a move at the pot with a draw. Check folding seems very weak. What should I have done?

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, SB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kh Kd (one pair, kings).
MP1 has 5s As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins 12 BB.

BoxTree · #2 06-28-2005, 09:04 PM

Please don't post the results in the original post. Don't even post them in white. We don't have enough willpower.

If you're going to call a turn raise (and then check-call the river), you should be check-calling the turn.

If you're sure he'd only raise if he hit his ace (and you're obviously not sure based on your comments at the top of your post), then you can safely bet the turn and fold to a raise.

So, check-call the turn and river.

Edit: I'm not convinced that I like betting out on the flop. Everyone has the odds to stay with all sorts of junk (gutshots, an ace + backdoor flush draw, etc.) But...you did raise from the BB, so that limits your holdings. Did you consider check-raising the flop? Or waiting until the turn to check-raise? Or pulling a stop [on the flop] and go [on the turn]?

Dazarath · #3 06-28-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to call a turn raise (and then check-call the river), you should be check-calling the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't check/call everytime an overcard falls to your pair; you'll end up giving up way to many free cards. As for the hand itself, I'd have to be really sure that the person would only raise with the A, a straight, or a set to fold. If you're going to fold everytime a scare card falls, people will notice and start taking shots at you.

LoosenUp · #4 06-28-2005, 10:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So, check-call the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

what kind of weak advice is that. Against one player we are check calling because an overcard fell. You must be giving an example of a weak passive tendency that you should never do, correct?

DeezNutz3 · #5 06-28-2005, 10:23 PM

I like to CR flops like this from the blind

BoxTree · #6 06-29-2005, 04:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to call a turn raise (and then check-call the river), you should be check-calling the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't check/call everytime an overcard falls to your pair; you'll end up giving up way to many free cards. As for the hand itself, I'd have to be really sure that the person would only raise with the A, a straight, or a set to fold. If you're going to fold everytime a scare card falls, people will notice and start taking shots at you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually, you should bet out the turn. MP1 is described as a "typical Party player," but the OP can't decide if the turn raise is a bluff or not.

Suddenly, MP1 isn't so typical. Given this change of heart, the OP should check-call. If the OP were confident that MP1 was indeed a typical Party player, the OP could fold here. A typical Party player would only raise with an ace, a straight, or a set. A tricky Party player will occasionally bluff-raise the turn.

It turns out that the OP's initial read (typical Party player) was correct. If the OP had been more confident in his read, the OP wouldn't have had to second-guess the turn action, and he could have folded without much headache.

Against a tricky player, I check-call.

Against a typical player, I usually bet, I sometimes check-raise, and I rarely check-call.

The OP changed his mind about MP1 on the turn. Typical became tricky. (Why the change? I have no idea.) So, if the OP really thinks that MP1 is tricky, he should be check-calling here.

Here's a little FYP (my edits in bold):

"Against a typical player, [y]ou can't check/call everytime an overcard falls to your pair; you'll end up giving up way to many free cards. As for the hand itself, I'd have to be really sure that the person would only raise with the A, a straight, or a set to fold. Against a typical player, I can fold this most of the time without a problem. Against a tricky player, folding isn't an option -- check-calling is better. If you're going to fold most of the time against a typical player, you'll be fine. If you're going to fold everytime a scare card falls, people will notice and start taking shots at you."

There's nothing wrong with folding to a turn-raise against a typical player. Typical players usually won't learn and won't suddenly become tricky because they notice you're becoming weak. Of course, if similar situations arise in a single session against the same players, then yes, you're going to have to call more turn raises against typical players.

To assume that most typical players will detect your weakness and make moves on you in the future...is paranoia. Typical players are typical. They don't adapt very well and their play is usually straightforward.

BoxTree · #7 06-29-2005, 04:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, check-call the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

what kind of weak advice is that. Against one player we are check calling because an overcard fell. You must be giving an example of a weak passive tendency that you should never do, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you offer something useful (like another approach) or bother to quote other posters without neglecting the rest of the posted content, you'll probably get better responses.

college_boy · #8 06-29-2005, 10:55 AM

You raised preflop so the ace is as scary to them as it is you. I bet/fold the turn.

Jeffage · #9 06-29-2005, 11:14 AM

Fold the turn. You've represented an ace but get raised anyway after you bet the turn. This is a pretty clear indication you're drawing to two outs and pot odds don't indicate you can make a profitable call to hit one of them.

Jeff

MattiasL · #10 06-29-2005, 05:18 PM

Fold the turn.

Calling down cost you 2BB against a 10BB pot which is far from enough.

You say you called to guard against the semi bluff raise.
Just for fun I did a little arithmetics. Assume:
- If the third heart arrive you lose 1 BB (you do not call the river then, right?)
- If you hit a king you win only one river bet (no big diff, since this is only two outs).
- On any blank, the river gets bet (so you always pay 2BB against a 10BB pot).

Now for the numbers: if you are up against the bluff with probabilty P, you win
(2/44 (kings) + 36/44 (non-heart) * P) * 10BB, and lose
36/44 (non-heart) * (1-P) * 2BB + 8/44 (heart) * 1BB.

This is plus EV only if P > 14% (13.888...)%

Note that these 14% has to include all the times he actually has the ace (or some other hand that beat you on the river).

For someone that "seemed like a typical Party player", this sounds wildly optimistic.