The biggest leak ?

[DeathDonkey]

The correct answer is not listed. It is "preflop mistakes". This is a wide range of mistakes that includes things like coldcalling when you should 3 bet or fold, and probably the biggest in my mind, limping / openlimping / overlimping when you should raise (almost always too passive) or fold (sometimes too loose). I'm pretty sure Ed Miller has said preflop mistakes almost always cost the most.

-DeathDonkey

[mr pink]

where is calling down too often when it is clear you are beat?

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
The correct answer is not listed. It is "preflop mistakes". This is a wide range of mistakes that includes things like coldcalling when you should 3 bet or fold, and probably the biggest in my mind, limping / openlimping / overlimping when you should raise (almost always too passive) or fold (sometimes too loose). I'm pretty sure Ed Miller has said preflop mistakes almost always cost the most.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree you are right. But I think a large majority of 2ers have the preflop stuff close enough. Here is quote from Ed's post that lead me to skip the preflop leaks.
[ QUOTE ]
Put things into perspective. That's why my book hammers on the postflop stuff so much. Because THAT is where people's big leaks are! That's where people are making LARGE mistakes OFTEN.


[/ QUOTE ]
They go hand in hand though. Anyone with a very bad preflop game is sure to get in a ton of costly situations they cant handle. But it is the post flop leaks that cost the most money directly.

[DeadManJay]

I checked going too far with marginal hands and misplaying overcards, but I only really have these problems when it's headsup. If there are still alot of people in I have no problem admitting that I'm behind.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
The correct answer is not listed. It is "preflop mistakes". This is a wide range of mistakes that includes things like coldcalling when you should 3 bet or fold, and probably the biggest in my mind, limping / openlimping / overlimping when you should raise (almost always too passive) or fold (sometimes too loose). I'm pretty sure Ed Miller has said preflop mistakes almost always cost the most.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm with donkey. i checked overcards because i'm aggressive preflop with them and get tied to the pot, and keeping thinking "if that A comes, my kicker is good" so i call all the way down.

but, i know SSH says to get an basica understanding of preflop, but move on to postflop and come back later, but i find that if i don't know how to play my hand preflop, i just get lost postflop and end up floundering with all kinds of errors.

so, while i'm reading the postflop section, i'm always keeping logs of my preflop play and comparing.

[McGahee]

The question was, as I read it, pertained to the AVERAGE micro player. Clearly their biggest leaks are slowplaying too much, and calling w/ marginal hands in small pots.

2+2 has helped me a great deal in both of those departments. I probably still need improving in the psychology/tilt/results-oriented departments.

[Isura]

I voted overplaying marginal hands. Particularily my problem seems to be not folding enough to turn/river raises with marginal hands (1 pair, small 2 pair) on scary boards.

[Absolution]

That would only really be a big leak if the pot was small - and that's covered in the poll.

[Absolution]

Well, the average micro player probably makes all those mistakes postflop, but their biggest leaks come preflop by far. They make preflop mistakes almost every hand they enter and they are very costly.

For the 2+2er the mistakes come postflop (and I'm talking in general here). Going with Eds criteria (most often + most costly) from smallest leak to biggest:

- Folding the best hand on the river in a big pot. I would hope we wouldn't get this fundamental wrong enough of the time to make it even a micro leak. This is certainly costly, but not made often enough.

- Slowplaying. Despite the recent increase in posts regarding this subject, I think most of us handle this situation well enough. It really doesn't come up often enough in mciro and certainly isn't costly to the 2+2er.

- Misplaying overcards certainly is not a big leak for 2+2ers. As Ed pointed out, these cards are just too good to be our biggest leak - not costly enough to be a big leak.

- Going too far with marginal hands when the pot is small. This could be a medium leak for some here, but you could probably argue that it doesn't happen very often in micro levels.

- Not protecting hands in big pots. I think this is the most OBVIOUS difficult situation for us. It is a tricky subject with a lot of subtlety and it comes up quite often.

- Misplaying draws. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet. I think this is a much larger leak than most 2+2ers would like to admit. I think a lot of us don't count ALL of our outs PROPERLY, which often leads us to make mistakes like fishing for a reason to call or not raising for value. This leads to a lot of the other mistakes mentioned as well. I think a lot of people gloss over that section of SSH thinking they know the math and outs are easy to count. A lot of posts seem to indicate otherwise. Marginal outs situations come up very often and cost a lot in the long run.

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
- Misplaying draws. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet. I think this is a much larger leak than most 2+2ers would like to admit. I think a lot of us don't count ALL of our outs PROPERLY, which often leads us to make mistakes like fishing for a reason to call or not raising for value. This leads to a lot of the other mistakes mentioned as well. I think a lot of people gloss over that section of SSH thinking they know the math and outs are easy to count. A lot of posts seem to indicate otherwise. Marginal outs situations come up very often and cost a lot in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am guilty of this. Online when multi-tabling it is easy to chase a bad draw or just call when I should be raising. Live I have more time between actions and play them better.

Your post clears up the confusion as to which leak could be the largest and the reasoning as to why. Now lets switch to methods of identifing if we have these leaks in our own games.

1. Folding the best hand on the river when the pot is big.

Ed harps on this it must be important. Worst part is you will never know when you do it. PT has the stats - Won$wsf, Won$atSD, and Went toSD%. Will these numbers show this leak? Is there anouther way to spot it? Or do we call 99% of the time when facing one bet on the river and stop the leak for sure? Which is what I do and I have won some crazy hands doing it!

2. Slowplaying to often or at the wrong times.

I have no idea how to spot this leak in your own game. Would it show up in your postflop AF in the flop number? I never slowplay at low limits unless I playing against friends and want to have fun messing with their heads. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

In the average micro game I always bet a good hand. I have bet/raised a flopped boat, nut flush, even quads the one time it happened. The players don't think what I could have but still call as always. If you don't bet they will check it though and money is lost.

3. Misplaying overcards.

This one is hard to spot as Im told these types of hands have the highest variance. So you may be a net loser with several of these hands for long periods of time, even when playing them correctly. And as you pointed out these cards are to good and not costly enough to be a players biggest leak.

4. Going too far with marginal hands when the pot is small.

How do we spot this leak in our games? I don't know, and have a feeling this is my biggest leak. If the pot is small it usually means there are not many players in the hand. If they check to me I am betting to try and win the hand. This is dumb and I do it like a reflex even when I hold nothing. DeadManJay said...

[ QUOTE ]
I checked going too far with marginal hands and misplaying overcards, but I only really have these problems when it's headsup. If there are still alot of people in I have no problem admitting that I'm behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is sooo true for me. When will I know I have fixed this leak? What stat in PT will change? I would love to hear how to spot and fix this leak. I guess it is clear I should just check/fold. But at which point does this become weak/tight? Or should I care?

5. Failing to properly defend your hand with aggressive play when the pot is big.

This one is going to be hard to spot. I don't even understand it fully. I think it is about check/raising and waiting till the turn to try and chase people out of the hand. Sometimes flop betting/raising can force the other players to call to the river? You said it best

[ QUOTE ]
Not protecting hands in big pots. I think this is the most OBVIOUS difficult situation for us. It is a tricky subject with a lot of subtlety and it comes up quite often.

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone has ideas how to spot and fix this leak please share. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

6. Misplaying draws

How many post have we seen about pot odds, the math of holdem, the 2/4 rule, and the rule of 13? Ed says memorize the odds. This is to simple and most people are to lazy to do it. This is my favorite chart Thank you Lost Wages. So how do we spot if this leak is fixed? Post hands here I guess. I have tried to learn the odds but I still make huge errors. I grasp for reasons to continue to draw like implied odds which I don't fully understand.

Somethings have become clear. I have leaks, lots of them and most are big! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]