QJo vs TAG 3-bet on a Jh 9s 8h board

#1 12-27-2005, 06:21 PM

I apologize if I posted this in the wrong forum. I wasn't sure if this belonged in the micro limits forum or this one since it was a 6 max table.

Anyhoo, I'm looking for comments on my turn fold, should I have just called down? Raise?

SB is a TAG player while BB is TP PF, and LP on the flop.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Should I have raised PF? I'm fresh to 6 max and have basically been basing my PF strategy on the SSH PF Tight game starting hands (mid, late and blinds).

Flop: (3 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

With TP and a gutshot straight draw, I liked my hand and felt it was good for a raise, however SB's 3-bet into me set off some alarms. I thought he might have flopped the straight here, what else would he 3-bet with?

Turn: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero folds.

I'm not sure what BB has here, he could been on a FD or OESD, I chose to fold here fearing I was already beat. Had it been HU I would have called the turn and the river to see a showdown.

#2 12-28-2005, 05:44 AM

Bump, comments anyone?

#3 12-28-2005, 06:02 AM

You're opening the hand, and you have the button, and there are fresh blinds to steal. Easy raise.

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I thought he might have flopped the straight here, what else would he 3-bet with?

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Considering you didnt raise PF, he could have a variety of two pairs here, and feels like charging your possible flush draw. Your raise to BB's bet may look like you want a free card(heh), which rings the bell for SB to protect his hand.

Just my .50 cents...(that i gain when im in SB and you limp QJ)

aLOWdAkING · #4 12-28-2005, 06:09 AM

Open-raise preflop, entire hand plays different.

I'd probably call down though.

MattC · #5 12-28-2005, 06:24 AM

lots of draw and 2 pair out there. I think I call down.

#6 12-28-2005, 06:26 AM

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lots of draw and 2 pair out there. I think I call down.

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Pretty obvious to raise if you put them on draws, pretty obvious to get out if you are against two pair. Which is it?

MattC · #7 12-28-2005, 06:32 AM

Why obvious to get out or raise? I dont like raising because we could very well be behind but i also think the collection of the facts that we can outdraw 2 pair, that he has a draw, pair + draw, orthat hes overplaying something like top pair weaker kicker makes it a call down.

Of course, i'm very willing to re evauluate based on the turn card + action.

#8 12-28-2005, 06:50 AM

It would take a very strong read to put BOTH opponents on draws here. With that said, your other option leaves you looking like you are drawing against two pair. You have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] so your Q 2 pair draw is good, 3 outs. I think it's safe to say that hitting your gutshot where the 10 is a heart is not a sure way to win.

They might very well already have a straight and you are drawing to 2 Ts.

Any way im looking at it, you have 6 BBs in the pot on the turn and at best have 5 clean outs.

#9 12-28-2005, 07:10 AM

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lots of draw and 2 pair out there. I think I call down.

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Really? Is my hand strong enough to overcall on the turn?

#10 12-28-2005, 07:22 AM

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Any way im looking at it, you have 6 BBs in the pot on the turn and at best have 5 clean outs.

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Which is why I folded, I figured I had to be beat and the pot wasn't big enough to justify continuing with the hand.

Now that I've had some more time to think about the hand, I see that JT could be another likely hand for SB. If he would c/r 2-pair in this spot wouldn't he also c/r with TP OESD? Also given my read on SB as a TAG player and the fact that his play up to this point has been pretty straight foward. It's been about 30-ish hands or so. My gut tells me that he is more likely to bet out with 2-pair and slowplay a straight.