FPS?

[adanthar]

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On the other hand, any decent player who is drawing to the flush will see that check there, and might come to the conclusion that even if they hit their flush, it's not going to be good if it comes.

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So when the action goes 'preflop raise, bet, check behind' you immediately put the raiser on a full house? Umm.

No, I don't, but they might (might being the key word) become suspicious that you stopped being aggressive on the board pairing there. If I made a bet on the river when I hit my flush and someone came over the top, I'd put 2 and 2 together though, and figure it's either an elaborate bluff, or I am toast.

[AtticusFinch]

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If the better players dont know how good you are, this could also go the way of looking like a fish.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Or am I just putting too much faith in table image?

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If you show down after making this play, they'll just see it for exactly what it is: a good hand making a value bet that he hopes will be called. Not exactly a fishy play. If you wanted to look like a fish, you'd have to do it with trash. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think when you flop a big hand you need to vary your plays enough so that opponents can never put you on a hand. This is an excellent opportunity to check the turn and hope to get a bet on the river. This serves two purposes: First, it protects the times that you are actually on a draw or just have a hand like AK and would really rather not bet again. Secondly, it may promote action on the occasions you fire a second shot with the hand.

Varying your play is never fancy play. Representing a made hand against a donkey is.

that seems both weak and results oriented (actually one or the other)

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that seems both weak and results oriented (actually one or the other)

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Hmm, how would betting my flush, then folding to someone who raised me all in be weak and results oriented? With that line, I couldn't see any other hand there but a full house, quads, flush that has me beat (if I don't have the nut flush) or a bluff. While there is the possibility it could be a worse flush, most of the time I couldn't see it.

I'd love to hear your explanation on how that is weak though, and explain why it would be results oriented.

I could be wrong, but I think the bet-check-bet line plays a lot like flush. The flop semi-bluff may take down the pot, but if not it often buys a free river.

Ok, I can see that. But if I had the nut flush, and someone came over the top, I would still be very concerned right there, since I know if they have a lessor flush they might be scared of a better flush or a full house beating their flush there and just call (I mean, not saying they wouldn't reraise, just not as likely on a dangerous board).

If this was omaha, I'd definitely give up my flush on that board if I hit it on the river and got raised, in holdem, I'd take my time bank and walk back thru the hand. I'd probably still fold here unless I had a good read, but I wouldn't be quick to call off my whole stack there.

If I had a lessor flush and someone raised me all in on that river, I would have alot easier time giving it up, that is certain.

I still think if I was atticus, I would make a value bet there designed to get a call, and then get definite action from any flush on a river if it hits, and if it doesn't hit, you aren't likely to get more action anyways.

I notice alot of others here like his line, and someone made a good example about varying play, which I 100% agree with, but 4/5ths of the time, I'd probably play it my line there. Not that there is anything wrong with his line, someone with a jack is drawing to 2 outs, and a flush is drawing dead, and a straight is drawing dead. But I like getting extra money out of hands before they get to rivers, because when the river comes, all the cards are on the table, and a missed flush or straight gives up then and there, causing you to gain no more chips.

[SumZero]

I like the line. You raised preflop and got two callers. You made a continuation/probe bet on the flop. It bought you a free card on the turn. The range of hands you can have here is huge. Flush draws, missed over cards, straight draws, etc. I think the turn check with you having position gives you maximum chances of winning a big pot, and is the most +EV thing you can do.

I do this a lot. You give yourself a great chance to double through a made draw on the river, and when you don't get lucky enough for that, you still make money off the many hands that will bluff a river blank or think they're good and bet or check/call the river (TT,QJ, etc.). You only really lose equity against missed draws that decide to check/fold the river and the very unlikely river 2-outer that would've folded..

I'm not sure of a good bet amount if villain checks to us on the river. I likely push.

Incidentally, as you mentioned, this hand really illustrates the need to consider the likely resulting pot amount/stack amounts when considering a bet. If you bet a little more, you get Villain MUCH more committed on the flop.