This Ought To Get Some Replies

This quote makes it clear what group he's talking about:

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Half of all murders (and much of the crime) in the U.S. are caused by a particular race

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This quote makes it clear that he's not being remotely objective:

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Even the elite of this race fail to excel.

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Finally,

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Compare this with any other minority and the results are clear to anyone without a bias. Asians routinely outperform whites and are disproportionately represented at elite universities, despite being a minority and in spite of poverty and limited integration into society.

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Ignore for a moment that there are minorities that fair much worse in America than this "particular race".

Potentially, there is a lot to be learned by understanding why people of Asian decent do so much better than people a "particular race" (on average) in America. The idea that this is only/mostly to do with intellectual capacity of respective groups is "on the border of retardation" however.

Edit :
Actually, now that I look at this one more time, I'm starting to wonder if this guy really is talking about the "particular race" I thought he was. What ratio of murders and crime is perfomed by white people in the US? Of course, this still makes the "even their elites don't excel" utterly ridiculous.

RE: Bluff. I should say that though what you said deals with many of the same issues as the original poster, I don't consider it remotely racist - and the reason for that is that you're addressing cultural issues. The original post is addressing issues of genetic inheritance relating to intelligence/work ethic etc - and that's just demonstrably false. Not only that but probably most importantly, the tone reflects your intention - the original post just reflects spite.

Nevertheless, I think much of what you describe is just poverty. The 'teen sex/drugs & violence' type culture is just one of poverty, it's exactly the same phenomena you find in the white underclass. And as far as what you describe for the black community: I think when you hear talk of the black community being too large to incorporate that kind of commercial nepotism - the reason isn't that the black community is too large logistically, it's that it's so large it doesn't have a common identity. And I don't think that's a bad thing, not having a common identity is indicative of a more complete integration, whites don't have a common identity either - in fact where whites exercise the ability to only shop at white stores, use white lawyers etc, we'd call that racism. I don't honestly think much needs done, it's truly unfortunate that we can't effect social change quickly, but it's an inescapable reality. There are more and more blacks entering the middle class, more blacks going to college, the first generation of black millionaires retiring. Simply I think the system is now in place, but it will take many many generations subsequent to the very recent history of racist segregation before blacks in poverty are not disproportionately represented. What percentage of whites in poverty enter the middle class every generation? Not that many.....

If I'd known I was going to be quoted in a new thread, I would have taken the time to make my point more eloquently and with proper references, lest its flaws be used a diversion by people with narrow minded agendas. My attitude may well be considered racist, but the facts I state and the issues that need to be faced are real, and very relevant to American society.

For the guys who doubt my "over 50% comment", read this:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

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Homicide Type by Race, 1976-2002
Offenders
White Black Other
45.9% 52.1% 2.0%

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I will post SAT and intelligence scores when I get time (or someone else can). Suffice to say that those who claim that there isn't a huge difference are misinformed or straight out lying.

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This quote makes it clear that he's not being remotely objective:

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Even the elite of this race fail to excel.

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No, it makes it clear that particular comment is not objective. The point I was making is that even the elite of that race who attend university or are wealty don't excel in society. There are very, very few great CEOs, lawyers, writers, artists, politicians, scientists, nobel prize winners (lol), journalists, etc etc who are from that race. That's all I'm saying. Though they have made a notable contribution to bling bling gansta rap (girls in skimpy clothing and shiny man-jewellery, anyone?). I guess that could be considered art.

Nobody was questioning the SAT or IQ scores. What people (like me) were questioning is that those differences could be accounted for by something inherently attached to race. There is every indication that there is no such connection <snip>. Put simply poor people score worse in SAT and IQ tests, always have and probably always will, for reasons too numerous and tangential to bother getting into in this thread.

I'd also suggest you consider the possibility that people were offended by your post because it was spiteful and derisive, not because of the position you were arguing.


Edit: Was wrong

Um, brain size differences between races?? There is a strong correlation between this and IQ. The differences were reported a while ago (again) in New Scientist and elsewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up.

In the meantime Wikipedia has an interesting and well referenced article for anyone not familiar with the topic. There is more going on here than cultural or historic differences. Anyone without a bias can see this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an...s_among_races)

I'm familiar with that study actually, I'd forgotten about it. There has only been shown to be a tenuous link between brain size and IQ - but setting that aside, say for the sake of argument there's a strong correllation, that's still missing the point entirely.

Higher IQ's will propogate where having a high IQ is advantageous. If you look at the racial history of America that possibly applied less to blacks at some point, since starting a business, going to college etc was not an option. It doesn't now - so if you can establish a lower average IQ in blacks it means absolutely nothing except that it references a historical reproductive pattern - that gap will close where a higher IQ becomes reproductively attractive. And there are numerous studies to the effect that this gap has been closing for decades. That all makes IQ nothing inherent to race - stupid people have stupid kids in every race, as far as I'm aware.

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Higher IQ's will propogate where having a high IQ is advantageous.

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Such as Europe and North Asia during the ice ages?

OK so I'm joking, but to convince me of your theory you'd have to convince me that intelligent people have more kids than your average joe. Is there any evidence of this, because it's not the case today.

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And there are numerous studies to the effect that this gap has been closing for decades.

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Yes, it's called interbreeding, which presumably has happened a lot more since America ended Apartheid. And the gap hasn't closed that much - see the graph in wiki.

And finally there's the point that poor Africans do horribly at IQ tests - just above retard - whereas poor Indians, Chinese, Middle Eastern, you name it get normal scores (in fact some do better than white scores). Go figure.

[Rduke55]

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Um, brain size differences between races?? There is a strong correlation between this and IQ. The differences were reported a while ago (again) in New Scientist and elsewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up.

In the meantime Wikipedia has an interesting and well referenced article for anyone not familiar with the topic. There is more going on here than cultural or historic differences. Anyone without a bias can see this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an...s_among_races)

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Well there are a lot of problems (including technical, statistical, and design) with many of the studies you're quoting here (actually I guess it's "the studies your quotes are quoting"). And the interpretations are suspect. One that jumps to mind is attributing genetic causes to that which is better explained by environmental causes. Maybe you should look in greater detail instead of googling for ten mninutes and finding something that supports your crazy assertations and taking that as gold.

Aldous Huxley's quote defining philosophy seems to ring true here:
Finding bad reasons for what one believes for other bad reasons [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

This is unbelievable. Have you actually read this link at all? Here's a quick summary for anyone that missed it:

All of the diverse studies show that Asian > White >> Black on the measures of:

1. IQ
2. Test scores including school results, GRE, SAT, etc
3. Brain Size
4. Reaction Time (which the authors conclude is due to neurological differences in the Asian/White comparison)

In addition, I will add:

5. Highly advanced cultures and technical achievements, both in modern times and ancient history.
6. Contributions to science, literature, philosophy, etc, both in modern times and ancient history (though Whites > Asians on this in modern times, but not by much)
7. Attendance of elite universities
8. Representation in professions requiring intelligence.

These results cross cultural and economic boundaries, and the borders of countries. 5 & 6 span millenia.

Please, have a look at the graphs for each of these traits, the actual test results of each race, and the diagrams of skull shape. Isn't it obvious what's going on here?

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Maybe you should look in greater detail instead of googling for ten mninutes

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I have been reading about this for a couple of years. Wikipedia just provided a convenient and authorative source with references to much of the information.

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There are problems with some of the studies

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Yes, there are. But look at the trends, look at the diversity of the studies and test scores; look at the complete lack of contradictory evidence. Even though the degree of difference may vary from test to test and study to study, the trend is always the same. Is there ANY test of ANY mental ability where Black > White > Asian? No. It's always the other way around, regardless of the test, regardless of country or socioeconomic status. What does that tell you?

[joel2006]

if there was any need to prove that there clearly are environmental influences on IQ, the wiki are contains proof, it says:
"Neither Head Start nor most other (more intensive) programs have been able to produce lasting gains in IQ or school achievement.[7] Gains are lost after the programs end. Supporters note that they continue as long as the programs continue." The fact that gains were made and lost indicate that at least part of the gap IS due to environmental influences. Note that this article uses data from US blacks only, who have been for the last 400 years subjected to horrific oppression (300 years of chattel slavery and another 90 of legal discrimination). Why anyone would chose to ignore that is a very interesting question. There is no evidence that these differences are solely due to innate racial differences. Genes and the environment interact and always must. If one took 2 types of plants, where one was genetically due to be taller than the other and then limited it nutrionally for 400 years, then compared its offspring to the other, its offspring would be shorter, but that says nothing about its genetic potential.