Inadvertently Giving Pot Odds

[RavenJackson]

While reviewing a hand history from a MTT last night I think I identified a leak in my game. I do not have the HH at work; however, my recollection is as follows:

I am in the BB [~3800 in chips, which was well above average] it is early in the tournament [about 40 minutes] and I receive KsKc. There are 4 limpers and I raise pot sized [~200 as Blinds are 20/40]. Only 1 comes along for the ride [the Button]. I have no real concerns with my play preflop.

The flop comes down Kh-10s-8h, which I am not thrilled with given the flush draw. I lead out with a pot sized bet [the lure of the pot bet button on UB], which was ~600 and the button calls relatively quickly [his stack was ~500 less then mine and I had no real reads on him]. Did the pot sized bet have enough FE to push a reasonable person off a draw? My goal was to take down the pot without seeing the turn. Did I inadvertently give the Button good pot odds by not pushing?

The turn was a As, which made a realistic straight possibility. Q-J was a possible hand; however, I decided to bet pot sized again just in case the button was drawing for a flush [~1800 again the pot bet button]. The button quickly called and I was done with my hand. Once again, was the pot sized bet sufficient? I wanted to bet with a healthy amount of FE; however, I did not want to go broke.

The river was a Jh which reaffirmed the fact that I was done with this hand. I checked and the button pushed. I folded and showed my pocket kings, he graciously showed me Ah-2h for the nut flush on the river.

I am happy with the laydown; however, not happy that I had 2 chances to push the button off a draw and failed [and lost 3/4 of my stack]. Was it the pot sized bets? The pot bet button has become a betting default for me and I think I am overusing it.

In any event, UB crashed about 20 minutes later and we were paid on a chip equity basis.

[Superfluous Man]

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The flop comes down Kh-10s-8h, which I am not thrilled with given the flush draw. I lead out with a pot sized bet [the lure of the pot bet button on UB], which was ~600 and the button calls relatively quickly [his stack was ~500 less then mine and I had no real reads on him]. Did the pot sized bet have enough FE to push a reasonable person off a draw? My goal was to take down the pot without seeing the turn.

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I didn't read the rest of your post, because whatever other problem you have, it pales in comparison to this one. You have top set and you don't want to go to showdown? You want someone to fold when you have the absolute best hand possible on this flop? You are at worst a 60/40 favorite when he has exactly an open-ended straight draw with two hearts. The vast majority of times, you will be a 3:1 favorite or greater. You should want your opponent to put his money in the pot when he's getting insufficient odds.

Somehow, get your money and the opponent's in the pot on this flop. If he hits a straight or a flush or a straight flush, you're going to lose (unless you hit a full house redraw, of which you have many with top set). But get the chips in with the best of it; that's what matters.

Edit: Here is a hint. If anything, a pot size bet on this flop is too large.

[Lloyd]

Worst case scenario is he has a hand like QJh giving him 15 outs and making you a 60/40 favorite. He's only 2 to 1 to make one of his outs on the turn. If you bet the pot he'd be getting 2 to 1 odds to call. So in a worst case scenario betting the pot makes his call a neutral decision - he's getting good enough odds but it goes to increasing his variance without really being rewarded (which would require him getting more than 2 to 1 on his call). Given that we have to include other hands in his range I don't think a pot size bet is too much.

The turn is certainly not good for you as it makes a straight plus the possibility of a hand like ATh making a bigger pair. But if you check you will lose this pot to any thinking player (notice the caveat). The question is how much to bet that allows you to 1) make a stand that you have a good hand; 2) gives him poor odds if he's still on a draw; and 3) allows you to get away from the pot loosing as little as possible if you're beaten or get outdrawn. Even a 1/2 to 2/3 pot size bet still says you've got a nice hand. In terms of a draw I think we can ignore the straight draw. Would he call that big of a pre-flop raise with something like J9 or Q9? If he was on a straight draw I think he made it with QJ. Otherwise, I think we're only up against a flush draw with 9 outs. So a 1/2 to 2/3 pot size bet is sufficient against that. And that range of a bet is small enough that it doesn't hurt is or commit us to the pot if he comes over the top. We can get away from the hand. So I'd bet somewhere around 1/2 to 2/3.

The river is a horrible card for you. It's hard to imagine that you are ahead at this point. I think that every possible hand he could have had has somehow made it by the river. I don't even think I'd waste anything with a blocking bet. If he was dumb enough to play with a hand that I can beat I think he's dumb enough to check the river.

Are you thinking you should be betting more than the pot? If so, I don't think that's wise. You want to bet just enough that you're opponent calls without proper odds. It's pretty easy for them to fold to a pot size bet (although obviously in this case it didn't work out that way, but that's being results oriented).

So in sum, I think the only thing I would have done differently is to have bet less on the turn. That would have left us with a few more chips after we're forced to fold.

[Lloyd]

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Edit: Here is a hint. If anything, a pot size bet on this flop is too large.

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I don't think a flop size bet is horrible, but my norm would probably be around a 2/3 pot size bet. But I think it's splitting hairs because it is a pretty draw heavy board. But I agree with the rest of your post.

[illegit]

He got 2-1 odds on the flop; he was 4-1 against hitting his flush thus he's not getting correct pot odds to call. The same is true on the turn, he's not getting correct pot odds to call, for that reason you generally WANT him to call. He might justify his calls with implied odds, but you didn't pay him off when he hit so he didn't get paid off enough to justify his calls. He made a mistake on the flop and the turn, thus this play is making you money in the long run and is losing him money in the long run.

[Superfluous Man]

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Edit: Here is a hint. If anything, a pot size bet on this flop is too large.

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I don't think a flop size bet is horrible, but my norm would probably be around a 2/3 pot size bet. But I think it's splitting hairs because it is a pretty draw heavy board. But I agree with the rest of your post.

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I don't think it's horrible either, but it's certainly on the large side of the range of bets which I would consider good here. For what it's worth, I probably bet around 2/3rds as well due to draw-heaviness.

[RavenJackson]

Thank you for your posts. Just to clarify [and forgive me if I come across as an idiot], on the turn, instead of trying to bet enough to get the button to fold on a draw heavy board I should have kept the pot smaller to take away his incentive to draw and keep myself from being pot committed?

My play on the flop is pretty standard for me. I do not mess around with top set [or any set] with a 2 flush board. I try to push off the flush draw. Maybe this is tight-weak; however, it has worked fairly well for me.

[Lloyd]

You need to stop making pot sized bets with big hands. I don't know any other way to say this. It is very much a beginner's way of playing poker and so easy to play against. There are two primary reasons why you need to bet less. First, you want to make a call enticing to someone but incorrect. A pot sized bet is (usually) not enticing and very easy to fold to. A 1/2 to 2/3 pot size bet is much more enticing but still incorrect for most draws. Of course, you need to be able to get away from your hand if you honestly believe your opponent made theirs, but it seems like you did just that in this example. The second reason you need to make smaller bets with good hands is that you want to be able to make a similar sized bet with a less than premium hand or one that even didn't connect with the board (continuation bets). And you obviously can't be making pot sized bets on missed boards since it will eat away your chips. IMHO, you really need to work on this as you play against better and better players (and it will allow you to dominate weaker players).

There's also a huge difference between playing in a multi-way pot and heads up. In a multi-way pot there are more hands out there and a greater possibility that somebody has the draw you are against. Heads up, you can't always be afraid of every draw.

Regarding the first paragraph, you don't want to bet enough that your opponent folds. You want to bet enough that your opponent makes an incorrect call. Yes, sometimes that means you'll be drawn out on. But long-term that is key to accumulating chips and going deeper in tournaments. It's not just about keeping the pot small so you can get away from it, it's about forcing your opponent to make mistakes and betting less than the pot usually does this.

This topic is addressed a bit in this article in the August issue of the 2+2 magazine.

Lloyd pretty much wrapped it up quite nicely so there's not much I can add to it.. Bet enough to make the other player make a mistake mathematically, but don't bet more than you have to.. and mix in your betting ranges so that they can't read you.. I don't mind value betting the pot, as long as you can mix in your other types of bets so that you're not predictable.. Remember that even though some bets will be fundamentally "incorrect", you have to implement them into your game as well to conceal your hand.

[tek]

I would have gone all in on the flop with that hand in a tourny. In a cash game, Lloyd's strategy would be correct.

With a flush draw (and heads up to boot) both players have to know it is K's against a heart draw. You can't give anywhere near 2-1 pot odds on the flop with a set. Take the pot down. Give pot odds when you have the nuts.