15/30 depedant

1800GAMBLER · #1 08-05-2004, 12:52 PM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold,

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets

Someone check my thinking here please.

Firstly, i'm starting to think that flop raise sucks more and more each day since the new fashion on party seems to be betting with intentions of 3 betting.

The important part for me is the turn. At the moment i still think my hand has showdown value the 3 bet for me really makes me think it's more likely he has a draw than a made hand, party love to jam 'em. Although Kj Kt are still a possibility.

So my options are either call down or raise the turn and check behind on the river the majority of the time.

Raising: I get more money in while he's drawing and he gets none in the times he makes his hand. Yet the times he 3 bets i'm commited thanks to my gutshot so i'm forced to call that bet thanks to my now seemingly stupid turn raise.

Or does everyone fold?

stoxtrader · #2 08-05-2004, 01:43 PM

I call the flop and fold the turn unimproved.

turnipmonster · #3 08-05-2004, 01:56 PM

I think everything about this hand confuses me. is everyone that plays the 15/30 insane or am I just stupid?

why would you call/raise on the flop with a gutshot in a 5SB pot? why would he then 3 bet the flop and fire on the turn with a draw? why would you then call him down with really just ace high and maybe 3 outs?

I am not trying to be smug, I am seriously confused on just about every street except preflop. can you explain your thinking?
--turnipmonster

1800GAMBLER · #4 08-05-2004, 02:14 PM

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why would you call/raise on the flop with a gutshot in a 5SB pot?

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Calling this only a gutshot is far from true. If i were to avg them i'd set my outs at about 6.5 because of the strange % of the time AQ just calls then bets outs/A3.

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why would he then 3 bet the flop and fire on the turn with a draw?

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That seems to be the very standard line on party, there's a hell of a lot of board in which if someone caps i'm 90% sure they have a draw.

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why would you then call him down with really just ace high and maybe 3 outs?

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Again 3 outs doesn't apply, yet if i was to truely average these a lot of the times i have half of the deck as my outs when he has the flush draw/straight draw.

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At first, I liked your flop play to take control and maybe get him to check and fold the turn.

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I'm checking the turn.

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Folding the flop wouldn't be a terrible play.

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It would.

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Raising the turn on that non-scare card after being 3-bet by SB on the flop is just asking for trouble.

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Why is it asking for trouble? Or do you think naturally think the worst is going to happen because i just got raised on the flop?

---

Can we please move away from the flop? I like the play, i'm happy with the play, the turn is much much more important. I guess you have to be happy with the flop to consider my options on the turn though.

blockafor · #5 08-05-2004, 02:34 PM

"Firstly, i'm starting to think that flop raise sucks more and more each day since the new fashion on party seems to be betting with intentions of 3 betting."

"Can we please move away from the flop? I like the play, i'm happy with the play..."

???

1800GAMBLER · #6 08-05-2004, 02:38 PM

Notice the line amounts given to each street. A clear 'yea those party players are doing this bet-3bet legit now' or just something regarding the frequency would have easily been enough for the flop. The turn is much more complex. Yet no one has taken a shot at it yet.

Again, folding the flop sucks.

blockafor · #7 08-05-2004, 03:27 PM

You're right. I messed up. Folding the flop does indeed suck.

The turn situation you're in is tough. I'd call but folding is close. I think him holding KJ or QJ is much more likely than AK or AQ (due to the lack of 3-bet pf) and therefore you'd get paid off nicely if the J fell and wouldn't have to worry too much about losing a lot if the A fell.

It's possible he has KQ, but it's Party so it's also possible he has a lot of other crap.

Garland · #8 08-05-2004, 03:50 PM

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Quote:
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Raising the turn on that non-scare card after being 3-bet by SB on the flop is just asking for trouble.

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Why is it asking for trouble? Or do you think naturally think the worst is going to happen because i just got raised on the flop?

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Because you're going to hate yourself if he 3-bets the turn and when the A falls on the river, you're going to call the last bet because the pot is so big and realize when you lose that you could have seen the river for 2 big bets less. And by the way, you weren't simply raised or check-raised, you were 3-bet and you only have A high with a gutshot. How many times out of 100 do you think you're ahead here?

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The important part for me is the turn. At the moment i still think my hand has showdown value...

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If you really think A high has showdown value, then just call him down. It's pretty simple, isn't it?

Garland

Knockwurst · #9 08-05-2004, 01:56 PM

Good problem. At first, I liked your flop play to take control and maybe get him to check and fold the turn. But he's not checking and folding the turn after three betting the flop is he? In fact he's betting out the turn, and now he's got you jammed up. He's either got a strong draw or K (maybe a QT?). Do you fold, call or raise? Like you point out if you knew he was on a draw, you'd raise him. If you knew he had a K, you'd call him. Also, two of your outs are possibly tainted (As and Js), so your seven outs are down to five outs, and we don't know if the two other aces are even good. I still think you made the right play on the flop, it just looks like you ran into a real hand, whether it's a draw or made hand is a tough call. So raise, call or fold the turn. I think all three are close (is that possible?)

I think a call and fold to a river bet or call and check behind if you miss.

But what do you do if a As or Js hits and he bets out? What do you do if he checks?

What do you do if an A hits and he bets out?

Man, this is complicated. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Garland · #10 08-05-2004, 02:13 PM

Folding the flop wouldn't be a terrible play.

Peeling one to get an A or J is acceptable, with the intents of folding the turn unimproved.

I think raising the flop in this spot is too aggressive here if you don't believe SB can fold right there. Like you said, it sucks to face a reraise and get stuck calling because you made the pot swell.

Raising the turn on that non-scare card after being 3-bet by SB on the flop is just asking for trouble.

Garland