Firing the second barrel - a discussion

[MarkD]

A couple of nights ago I was playing and I something clicked. I didn’t know how to correctly play a very specific, often repeated, betting sequence. I think this play comes up a lot and I saw it at least three times during my session. I’ve probably seen it many hundreds of times before and I imagine I made some almost random play without really thinking about it. Since this betting sequence comes up so often I think it is probably worth a fair amount to get it straightened out, or to at least discuss it and hopefully clarify a few things to myself. With that in mind I would like to say that I am posting the following examples because they illustrate the general concept that I want to get figured out. We can discuss the individual hands but I am really just supplying them as examples to start a discussion more so than to actually analyze the hands themselves.

So, the general concept I want to discuss is when you are head’s up with position and are the pre-flop raiser without a pocket pair. You then bet the flop after your opponent checks to you and your opponent calls you. He checks to your again on the turn and you have still not made a pair – when do we fire the second barrel? And, if we get check raised how do we respond?

I think what needs to be figured out and discussed is the texture of the board and how that should influence our desire to fire again. I could be wrong. Also, it’s possible I’m the only one who cares about this topic or thinks it is important but oh well.

For the purposes of discussion let’s define our opponent as “typical” meaning that he is slightly too loose, slightly too aggressive, and goes slightly too far with his hands. He is not a maniac or a particularly terrible player, but this is how I view the typical player that is unknown to me.

<font color="blue">Hand 1:</font>
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $15.
<font color="666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero (poster) raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls,

Flop:8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn:J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="purple">Hero ?</font>

<font color="blue">Hand 2:</font>
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls.

Flop:4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

Turn:J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="purple">Hero ?</font>

<font color="blue">Hand 3:</font>
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Flop:7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn:9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="purple">Hero ?</font>

PS. I would also like to discuss the situation when we are out of position as I think it is different and worth discussing seperately. I will post about it when I find a few good examples.

[sthief09]

this is going to be a goooooood thread.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately too. you get check-raised so often in these situations that sometimes it's best to give your opponent a free card, and call the inevitable river bet.

(This is just stream of conscience writing. this all could be very wrong, but I'm going to spit out my thoughts) I think a lot of it has to do with whether you think your hand is best unimproved. basically, can I call a river bet if I get check-raised? I think this is important because so often you're being check-raised by a worse hand. For example, in hand 1, I might not bet because (1) some of his "outs" make you a flush, and (2) because if you get check-raised you'll throw your hand away, costing you 2 bets overall. I'd rather check the turn, and raise the river, gaining 2 bets if I hit, and maybe calling a river bet, depending on the card, costing you only 1 bet. Also, with all those low cards and a BB defender, I feel a check-raise coming most of the time.

Hand 2- I bet because any A beats you, and if you check the turn, you're not getting him to fold the river. I think you'd get check-raised on the flop if he had a pair. since he called, I think there's a chance he'll fold. this goes against my logic in the last hand because I wouldn't call a river bet if I got check-raised. I think getting an A to fold is of primary concern here. If you get check-raised, you'll be beat most of the time (unless he picked up a heart draw, or has a spade draw).

Hand 3- this is tough. he didn't call the flop with overcards. he could've called with an overcard. he could've called with a crappy draw. he could've called with the intention of check-raising. he could've called with a 9. I'd bet and call down if check-raised here. there's a lot of draws on the board, and I'd like to win it here, and I think he'll be full of it enough to call a check-raise.

[pokerkai]

“typical” meaning that he is slightly too loose, slightly too aggressive, and goes slightly too far with his hands

And this sort of behaviour is what we are trying to avoid ourselves by examining this line of betting yes? Are we taking the hand too far or being too agressive by firing the second barrel?

My one question before i jump into the hands is...if this is an overly agressive player, why is he checking too me? Should I be feeling uneasy because of this passivity?

Maybe Im too agressive, but without any real read, my default play is to bet out in all 3 situations. There are just too many intrinsic benefits associated with betting out that it makes sense to bet given the passivity of the villain and your powerful outs.

[Franchise (TTT)]

My typical playstyle would be to:

Bet hands 1 and 2. Plenty of non-pair hands he could have from the flop that he'd drop, and you've got tons of outs.

Check hand 3. You've got the only two overcards, and the middle card just paired.

[MAxx]

My quick take is this, I could probably be seen betting any of those turns. However, I like hand 3 the worst just because this is the hand I would have the most trouble calling a checkraise. My reason for better or worse is that it is a somewhat weaker draw. Hand one I like the best by far. I have assumed pot sizes are all similar, have not taken time to check that- but it is terribly important.

[MarkD]

Since this is a discussion I feel I can provide my thoughts now without spoiling anything.

Obviously this situation is difficult to play and is also player dependent, but I strongly believe there has to be a simplistic set of guidelines that we should be able to apply that tip the scale in one direction between checking and betting.

A general consideration that will prevail throughout all of these decisions is:
- What is the texture of the board and how does it relate to our opponent’s perception our hand and our pre-flop, flop, and turn plays combined?

I think the important things that need to be considered with respect to betting are (not in order):
1) Do we currently have the best hand? Are we giving a free card or are we getting a free card?
2) Do we have a draw, and if so, what kind of draw?
3) How often will we get check raised?
- Will we have to call down if we get check raised?
4) How often will our opponent fold?

I think point 4 may be most relevant consideration since the pot will be between 3.33 and 3.83BB so if our bet wins more than 23% of the time then it is immediately profitable. (This is not entirely true if we our forced to call a river bet after our opponent calls the turn and bets the river.) I think the most important aspect of determining how often our opponent will fold on the turn is the board texture and how that board texture relates to our opponents perception of our possible hand. Obviously the scariest cards for our opponent to see is an A, K, and Q (farther behind in the scare factor). I think this may lead us to the first possible conclusion of how to play the turn:

If a King or Ace comes on the turn after a flop containing all low cards you should bet, regardless of your hand. (Caveat: The turn did not add a new flush possibility to the board.)

Also, if we follow the above rule and get check raised on a card that does not help our hand then I think this is one situation where we can now safely check raise given the above caveat.

Now, with regard to point two above HPFAP states: “…you should tend to check hands with outs and to bet hands that, if already beaten, have no outs.” [1]. Granted, the examples in the book show us with at least a pair, but they text states that this is one of the important fourth street concepts and it seems to directly apply to the problem at hand. I’ve recently seen a very respected mid-stakes poster (Gabe) state that he believes this may be the worst advice in our beloved book since it leaves us open to be easily exploited by our opponents on the expensive streets. I’m not sure where I stand on this point but I believe it is a very important consideration to our problem.

This brings us to the next step: how we will respond to a check raise on the turn? If we can safely fold to a turn check raise then we should be more inclined to bet. If we have to call a check raise but cannot call on the river without improving I believe we should be less inclined to bet the turn and more inclined to call a bet on the river. This leads me to believe that we should be more inclined to bet with a queen high type of hand than with the big ace hands. I don’t think we can generalize this but I think this is generally correct. The king high type of hands put us in a precarious situation.

That’s about all I can think of at the moment. It took me a long time to write this so now I get to go back and read any responses that may have appeared while I was writing this.

[1] Holdem Poker For Advanced Players: 21st Century Edition, 1999, Sklansky, Malmuth, p.139.

[Cerril]

On 1 and 2 I'd definitely semi-bluff. I try to make sure that I play reasonably big pairs and big cards roughly the same, unless I flop something really stupid (3 high suited cards that don't touch me in any way except maybe a gutshot to second best). And if I manage to get heads up with someone I think is capable of folding if they don't hit a definite hand I'll bet the turn after betting the flop even if I don't hit. Early position too (while we're at it). While it seems a good strategy (i.e. has seemed to do well) I'm concerned that as a 'lock and load' sort of automatic thing it's going to appear good but be bad.

When there's a good possibility that I'm both up against someone who won't fold -and- can't improve to the best hand, I'll probably just shut down and be ready to check or fold on the river unless I do improve, and then resign myself to possibly showing the worse hand.

[MarkD]

There are just too many intrinsic benefits associated with betting out that it makes sense to bet given the passivity of the villain and your powerful outs.

What are they? Part of the reason I posted was to bring these benefits out in the open to be discussed and weighed.

My one question before i jump into the hands is...if this is an overly agressive player, why is he checking too me?

In general my typical player is slightly too agressive with his hands. When these players have no hand they can be quite passive, or randomly reckless. Of course, your question is exactly why these situations are not easy to play.

[MarkD]

I did not post pot sizes because they are about the same since the betting sequence was the same in each case. The difference in pot size in these situations is never big.

[MAxx]

I like how you set up your 4 criteria, but I think #1 is really hard to address. The information we have is that an average to decent player is willing to call a potential steal raise and then is willing to call a flop bet Heads Up. I am wondering how we well we can evaluate whether our hand has the potential to be currently best/ best without improving. Just my current thought. I am stumping my self with trying to get a range of hands that may lead to their PF call and flop call... I have seen all kinds of garbage as well as monsters respond in this fashion and everything imbetween.