Standard TP fold?

JerseyTom · #1 08-06-2005, 11:00 PM

MP1 is (I think) a pretty decent, somewhat tricky TAG, capable of semibluff-raising turns.
SB is rockish and has done nothing noteworthy so far.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: JerseyTom is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, JerseyTom raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, JerseyTom raises, SB calls, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets, JerseyTom raises, SB 3-bets, MP1 calls, JerseyTom folds...

DCWildcat · #2 08-06-2005, 11:04 PM

If your reads are correct, I could see a fold here, despite getting 15 to 1. You'll probably have to call at least 1 (possibly 2 or even 3) on the river even if you hit your A or J, and with a 4 straight and 3 flush on the board, I don't think it's worth it.

If you had position, I could see a call, and a river call if it was only one bet to you if you hit an A or J. But I think this is a fold.

Dave G. · #3 08-06-2005, 11:13 PM

I think the fold is fine.

benkath1 · #4 08-06-2005, 11:14 PM

When a rock calls 2 on the flop and throws in 3 on a check raise, I think I'd fold too.

eviljeff · #5 08-06-2005, 11:21 PM

unless your reads are weak, it's a fold.

aK13 · #6 08-07-2005, 01:11 AM

Why raise the turn?

GrandmaStabone · #7 08-07-2005, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

if he gets raised he can be pretty sure he is far behind and fold?

aK13 · #8 08-07-2005, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

if he gets raised he can be pretty sure he is far behind and fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do that when you can get to showdown for the same price, and usually make more when you're ahead? (Guy behind folds for 2 but not for 1 typically, and if the turn bettor is bluffing, he's going to fold to the raise)

JerseyTom · #9 08-07-2005, 11:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

if he gets raised he can be pretty sure he is far behind and fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do that when you can get to showdown for the same price, and usually make more when you're ahead? (Guy behind folds for 2 but not for 1 typically, and if the turn bettor is bluffing, he's going to fold to the raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

Truthfully, I was pretty sure I had MP1 beat and that he had limped with some kind of medium ace that I outkicked (e.g. ATo or A8s, A9s). I also condsidered something like 44, but thought it far less likely. I don't think he'd play a flush draw this way; if he had the nut flush draw he would have 3-bet the flop.

SB had me concerned with all his cold-calling and I wanted to see just how much he liked his hand, so I rasied the turn. I figured him for either some sort of ace as well (medium suited perhaps, the worst case being spades, though I've even seen rocks play AQo this way preflop and flop) or a flush draw or something slowplayed like 55. If he has a weaker ace, I charge him the maximum, but if he's a ahead of me, he's C/Ring the turn (with, as I mentioned, the possible exception of a "scared" AQo just coldcalling and riding it out).

If he just coldcalls again on the turn, I'm probably check/folding the river unimproved. If he 3-bets, I know I'm toast.

Now all that said, the results are surpising:

Surprising, nothing! They had exactly what I thought:
SB bets the river, MP calls.
SB shows QsTs for the flush.
MP1 shows ATo for a donkish 1 pair.

Henke · #10 08-07-2005, 11:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

if he gets raised he can be pretty sure he is far behind and fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do that when you can get to showdown for the same price, and usually make more when you're ahead? (Guy behind folds for 2 but not for 1 typically, and if the turn bettor is bluffing, he's going to fold to the raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

If the guy behind is a typical player, we usually want to confront him with two bets if we think our hand might be best, because he will be correct to call with as little as 4.6 outs... In this case however, when SB is a rock and already called two on the flop, we can begin to suspect that he probably had a strong draw, strong ace or perhaps slowplayed some monster. I have a feeling that the turn card left us (at best) drawing to 3 outs...