Post for david...

[Steve Giufre]

David was kind enough to agree to respond to a post regarding blind defense. It seems to be one of the topics that keeps coming up lately, and there has been a lot of different on ideas on how we should be dealing with some common situations. I've been discussing this with Hiatus Over quite a bit lately, and I feel he is better suited to make this post than I am. This was written by him a few minutes ago:


I have had the pleasure to meet a bunch of mid-high posters in the last few months...Like dorks when we get together we talk poker-poker-poker. Everyone seems to be doing well which is real encouraging but one interesting thing that I have noticed is all of us winning players are taking many different approaches to defending our BB and to a lesser extent our SB...In HPFAP when discussing BB defense against a steal raise the advice given seems much tighter than what some extremely succesful high limit online players are reporting they are defending with. For example. During a live game with a bunch of 2+2'ers in it...A strong playing Cut-Off open raised. He is tough and tenacious. I was in the BB and folded T7o face-up and asked if this was a huge mistake. All 3 strong playing 2+2'ers told me I was making a huge mistake here. They said I was getting 3.5-1 closing the action and that I was way better than 3.5-1 against the range of hands...which is obviously true when all-in but I was always under the impression that the fact that u have no playing adavantages and a horrible implied odds hand out of position turned this into a relatively easy fold.

HPFAP on defending the BB against steal raises..."Against weak players who won't make good use of their position advantage on the flop u can call with hands as weak as those in Group 8. Howeever, it still might be best to throw some of the smaller non-suited connectors away...If someone calls in between you and your opponet or if your opponent play well, then you must tighten up some. But you can still play a lot of hands, perhaps Group 1-6" so we have a big discrepancy here between 2 sources I trust...1. the book I tore apart for 2 years straight and is the #1 reason why 3 years later I can go sit in any live 100-200 game in the country and feel like a favorite and have the bankroll to be comfortable....#2. a number of guys who play as tough as they come it seems and are bashing heads with some of the strongest players around and making a lot of money.

So, what should I be defending my blinds with? I look at the best Party Poker players and they are all taking different approaches...2 of the most respected players in the game for example are miles away on defending...one folds his BB to a steal raise 37 percent of the time, the other 58...they are both destroying the game. Also I have heard some stuff being thrown around 2+2 by simulators (Peter Runs, well respected winning player for 1) that u can play any 2 suited to a raise as long as its atleast 3-way...I thought and still think this cant be true. Can it? The math works all-in, but just doesnt seem right. 1 more example...I am teaching my very intelligent cousin limit hold em. Gave him pokerstove he is a math guy and is doing well with it. He sent me a hand where MP open raised...button 3-bet and my cousin called 87s in the BB...I told him this is way wrong, but when u plug it in to poker stove the math works out about even and it seems like it is a good implied odds spot. One last question for DS or whoever is good at searching the archives...I have a bet with JV about the old 73s thread that caught storm a year or so ago, I think it was mixed in with some Tommy Angelo is crazy post...Did DS say that we should always be defending 73s in the BB to raise HU or 3 way? I wont tell u what side we have, but I will tell u that the loser will have some embarrassing consequences for being wrong. Anyways...hope this gets some good discussion going about actual poker. Im sure I will have many more questions examples along the way but just wanted to throw this out there to start since David was kind of enough to say he would help us out with this.

[HiatusOver]

Anyone who wants to chime in is welcome OBV, certainly not just for DS

[J.A.Sucker]

One thing to keep in mind is that when getting 3.5-1 odds, you should be calling a lot because you're getting a good price. If you flop something, just continue to the river. You can play like a wuss oftentimes, because the money is going in anyway. In other words, extraction of value will occur because your opponent is tenacious and tough. However, you'll not have as many positional issues since you're not gonna put in as much action.

Another reason to call a lot is so that they'll stop stealing from you so easily. I love playing against people who are non-defenders. I just figure that I will either get the button twice a round, and/or that I will get to play for free. If you aren't thinking like this, then I don't think you are a favorite in a 100-200 game. I'm serious.

[HiatusOver]

OK, so we have some people (who by the way play 1500 hands per day) saying that it doesnt matter because its close, not excepting that sorry...And then JA Sucker tells me I cant beat a 100-200 game even though I have all this money that says that I can beat a 100-200 game. JA, even though I dont really like the tone of your posts basically ever, so whatever u decide to do is fine with me, but if u are gonna respond so bluntly and knowitall'ish I think maybe a loose range of hands that u defend with and an explanation why HPFAP doesnt agree with u would be nice. Basically all u said is call a lot, check-call, check-call...check.

Also, what does this line mean...?
"I love playing against people who are non-defenders. I just figure that I will either get the button twice a round, and/or that I will get to play for free."

What does someone being a non-defender have to do with them attacking your blinds...I know a lot of tighter players from the BB who are huge on playing hands in position and attacking blinds

[J.A.Sucker]

I'm not saying that you can or can't beat a 1-2 game, and I'm not trying to be snide in my remarks, nor am I trying to attack you. Seriously. I know that you are an excellent player from your posts, and I'm sure I've played with you online.

If you don't like me, fine. However, my advice is generally pretty good, I think.

My comment about non defenders being great on my left is a valid point though. MOST non-defenders are people who won't float/3 bet with the range of hands that they should when a tough player opens to the right of them in the cutoff or one more to the right of that. Thus, you can either get a SB who NEVER defends without the goods (a nice situation when you're on the button), or if they are 2 to the left of you, you get to steal their BB more often than you should when you have the button and will often be able to steal from 2 OFF THE BUTTON when they have it. This is very sweet, and is like playing a game with no antes.

As for my postflop stategy, check call, check-call gets the money in lots of situations, but people who have played with me in these situaitons know that it's nowhere near all that I do, either with good hands or bad hands.

There's also a little more to my comments because at high limits, hands are not played in a vacuum. Thus, I think that it's far better to be a loose defender than a tight one.

[HiatusOver]

On an unrelated note, my friend Matt and to a lesser extent I completely invented and populated the term float which u have seemed to embrace. Glad u are enjoying it. Also, u have said before that u can easily beat floaters and u love to play against them cause they are so easy to exploit, and now u say they are a nuisance and harder to play against. These kind of comments are where I have formed a less that A+ opinion on your posts. (You seem to always think u have the answers, no questions asked) All that being said, u are right...being a loose blind defender has tons of adavantages the bigger u go and I think it is a leak of mine...By the way I dont think anyone is running over my blinds enough to be playing a no ante game, I adjust my defending to how often they are stealing and I am still in there defending trust me. I was just suprised HOW LOOSE some very good players defend. Thanks for your contributions to the thread so far

[J.A.Sucker]

I don't know whether people are or aren't playing "for free" against your blinds, though there are some posters on here (who I will not name) who do play this tight.

As for my attitude as you perceive it, you're free to have your opinion, and I don't really need my ego stroked or derided. I'm a grown man who's comfortable with myself; I really don't care. I'll admit it here for everyone to read:

Yours >>>> Mine.

You win. Happy?

[theBruiser500]

"JA, even though I dont really like the tone of your posts basically ever"

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but this just made me stop and go "wow". JASucker is one of the most unoffensive posters around, you are crazy to think that.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
"JA, even though I dont really like the tone of your posts basically ever"

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but this just made me stop and go "wow". JASucker is one of the most unoffensive posters around, you are crazy to think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. He is one of a handfull of posters I always read.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"JA, even though I dont really like the tone of your posts basically ever"

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but this just made me stop and go "wow". JASucker is one of the most unoffensive posters around, you are crazy to think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. He is one of a handfull of posters I always read.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're not discussing what hiatus over said.

i agree with two things:

1) JA is a fantastic poster and i read everything he posts on this (mid/high) forum.

2) some of his posts CAN come accross "knowitallish"

2a) one reason for this is because he has played a while and is a great player whose opinions one should respect and take to heart...im sure its not intentional. he was on the list of posters id like to meet, if just for a drink.

2b) if he does come off as knowitallish and he means it i still wouldn't hold it against him because of the overall quality of his posts and opinions.

all i know is i'd never want to dissuade him from posting.

now...onto the meat of this thread:

i have been thinking about this thread since it was posted and taking into into account with what another very winning player told me. i was taken aback by the # of hands he defends (calls) w/ in his bb closing the action getting 3:1.

but after thinking about it i came to a lot of the conclusions that were reached here so i wont regurgitate.

but then i came to think that in situations that are close, it does tend to matter to get higher ev even by small increments...

now the MAIN things i think matter are 1) your opponents raising standards and 2) your postflop skills.

now i can pretty accurately determine 1 and adjust accordingly...but in all honestly i think i, as many people, tend to overvalue 2. so i still fold the hands i would think dont matter much because if i DO overvalue 2, then it doesn't matter anyways...(T6o etc...)

-Barron