"With every draw turn, turn, turn....."

[Jason Strasser]

Gotta raise cant worry about getting away from it, but you can maximize value vs other draws, combo draws, 2 pairs, trips etc.

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What's villain's preflop limping range in a $100 MTT here?

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About the same as a $5 or better....

Regards,
Woodguy

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Okay, that clarifies a lot. I'll shut up now.

[Lloyd]

In level 2? So much. AA-88, suited connectors, AK/AQ not as likely but perhaps Axs. Just because it's a $100 buy-in doesn't mean people don't play speculative hands in EP. Just that if they're good they are doing it with some type of plan in mind versus perhaps a lower limit where they get themselves in trouble more frequently.

[Jason Strasser]

Clayton,

You are thinking on the right track but I have 2things to say:

1) You said a raise gets worse hands to fold, but its obvious not all worse hands fold. But are there really a lot of hands that will fold to this turn raise that will give you action on the river (if you just call the turn)? I can forsee a bunch of action killers.

2) On a board like this, you need to consider the fact that your opp may be on a draw. If he has a pure draw here you can easily see that by calling you will likely get him to play perfect unless you induce a river bluff. Keep in mind you really cant get away from this hand under any circumstances (except a few rivers like a 9), so charging ur opp to draw is important.

-Jason

edit to add to 1: If the opponents hand is so weak he wont pay off a raise on eithe the turn or the river then you can not worry about maximizing value versus it because there is no value to be maximized. Hence raising a hand like A8o here off the pot is not a problem.

[Exitonly]

is the PF limp standard? i'm pretty sure i'd fodl that, maybe i gotta open up.(just saw you said to not mention that, so.. ignore that)

after that flop, my main concern is really just getting all my money in the middle. which probably happens best raising him here. I dont see any reason for concern.. at all. The 9 was probably a good card for you, now you stack a bunch of extra hands that may not have payed you off all the way.

This is a scary flop with all of the limpers but, a boat on the turn doesn't really scare me. I would think that with 2 pair or a set on the flop he would not have just called your raise with that board full of draws. I am not exactly sure at the level of play at the 100's but he has not made any real attempt to push out draws giving about 3:1 on the flop and turn. That does give a little reason for concern in my opinion. I can't find a reason to just call on the turn and not get all of my chips in on the river if a scare card does not hit. Since there was already 500 in the pot and hero only has 700 left before the turn call I would probably push and hope for the best. This is beyond the limits I usually play so please give some insight if I suck.

[woodguy]

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Clayton,

You are thinking on the right track but I have 2things to say:

1) You said a raise gets worse hands to fold, but its obvious not all worse hands fold. But are there really a lot of hands that will fold to this turn raise that will give you action on the river (if you just call the turn)? I can forsee a bunch of action killers.

2) On a board like this, you need to consider the fact that your opp may be on a draw. If he has a pure draw here you can easily see that by calling you will likely get him to play perfect unless you induce a river bluff. Keep in mind you really cant get away from this hand under any circumstances (except a few rivers like a 9), so charging ur opp to draw is important.

-Jason

edit to add to 1: If the opponents hand is so weak he wont pay off a raise on eithe the turn or the river then you can not worry about maximizing value versus it because there is no value to be maximized. Hence raising a hand like A8o here off the pot is not a problem.

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Nice post.

His crappy little bet froze me (and I had KK in the SB at another table taking some of my attention, but that's no excuse)

Usually I push when confused and have a good hand, but I called, which is just marginally better than folding.

Turn comes T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] he makes the same weak bet of 150, I call he shows 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the rivered chop.

Lots of good posts, and you're all right with having to raise, my head was firmly up my ass.

God I suck sometimes.

Regards,
Woodguy

[woodguy]

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is the PF limp standard? i'm pretty sure i'd fodl that, maybe i gotta open up.(just saw you said to not mention that, so.. ignore that)


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I have a thing for 7T sooted.

Don't ask me why, I'm not superstitious and do not play any other suited 2 gapper.

That said I limp A LOT of hands behind other limpers.

Regards,
Woodguy

[A_PLUS]

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No way you can put him on a range that you're even close to behing behind. He could have an overpair, trips, flush draw. Lots of possibilities at this stage. So I think the key is maximizing the value of your hand here. How can you get all or most of his chips.

If he has has an overpair he will very likely call a raise on the turn and check-call a bet on the river. If he has trips he will very likely call a raise on the turn and check-call a bet on the river. He'll call a smallish raise with a flush draw and probably a single pair / draw type of hand.

So I definitely think a raise is in order here. Not necessarily to protect your hand but to extract value from a hand that will overplay early in an MTT. I'd probably raise to around t300-400. If he doesn't call that you probably wouldn't extract any more chips from him anyway. And it's enough so that if he calls you might get the rest of his chips in on the river.

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Very well said Lloyd

[woodguy]

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No way you can put him on a range that you're even close to behing behind. He could have an overpair, trips, flush draw. Lots of possibilities at this stage. So I think the key is maximizing the value of your hand here. How can you get all or most of his chips.

If he has has an overpair he will very likely call a raise on the turn and check-call a bet on the river. If he has trips he will very likely call a raise on the turn and check-call a bet on the river. He'll call a smallish raise with a flush draw and probably a single pair / draw type of hand.

So I definitely think a raise is in order here. Not necessarily to protect your hand but to extract value from a hand that will overplay early in an MTT. I'd probably raise to around t300-400. If he doesn't call that you probably wouldn't extract any more chips from him anyway. And it's enough so that if he calls you might get the rest of his chips in on the river.

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Nice post.

Regards,
Woodguy