Not allowed to read the rules?

[MicroBob]

SOME rules posted on the wall is not the same as a more detailed copy of the rules that is available to everyone.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
My local cardroom is Canterbury Park. I believe the rules are available in the cardroom, although I have never asked. The rules are published on their web site. They also have a detailed glossary in case of any confusion as to the meaning of basic English. Failure to provide the rules is unfair and insulting to players. It's also a cop-out and cover-up for lazy, incompetent, insecure floormen. If a floorman knows his job, he should have no problem discussing the rules with a player who has read the rules.


[/ QUOTE ]

What is posted on the website is similiar to what you would find on the wall of a card room. Those are not complete rules and procedures, that is what the player needs to know.

The main problem problem with giving players the comnplete rules is the players always skip over the part that says the floorman will rule in the best interest of the game even if that means violating a strict interpretation of the rules. Poker players are also notorious for lelaving out some details and applying a rule form another situation that doesn't apply to the current situation. Here is an example (a very similiar situation occured with some well known players involved,):

In a touranment the limit is 400-800 with 200-400 blinds. Under the gun player puts 600 in the pot. Floor comes over and rules this is a raise. A well known poker personality writes about this situation describing it as above and mentions the floor made a horrible ruling (after he thre a tantrum at the actual event). Seems pretty clear floor got it wrong. But there were a couple detail left out. The limit had just gone up from 300-600 and the BB only posted the 200 and the UTG player put in 600 so the floor ruled correctly that the UTG player made his intention clear that he wanted to raise so he correctly ignored the literal rule that you have to put in more than half a raise to raise. The people involved in this example are well known in the industry; if they have a problem with fighting about what the rules say why would you want to give all the angle shooters a rule book so when their angle shot is disallowed in the interest of fairness they have a book to pull out and argue over? Note: I might have the numbers wrong in the example, but the incident occurred on a cruise in 2001.

[ QUOTE ]
We are going to play a game, but the rules are secret???

[/ QUOTE ]I would imagine that reading the rules is perfectly fine with the floor, as long as you're not sitting at an active table at the time. Not having the right to read and argue the rules, right there and then, should not be confused with the right to know the rules (which I would argue is a responsibility, not a right).

In the end, the house has the right to not even have its own written rulebook. Universal cardroom rules can be easily obtained before you hit the casino - and the right to see showdown hands IS a universal rule (look under "Showdown"). The guy sounds like either a cardroom newbie or an angle shooter.

On the other hand, if you're going to ask to see someone's hand, you had better 1) ask fast, and 2) expect to have to show him yours a lot from then on.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Since everyone and their brother is misinterpreting it already I don't see what harm can be done.

Perhaps point of emphasis on 'fouled hand MAY be declared dead' or further elabortation that 'a hand that touches the muck is not necessarily dead'.



If many people misinterpret the rules it's not necessarily the fault of the people.
The construction of the rules could also be to blame and this should be a sign that the rules should be clarified so as to be better understood.

[/ QUOTE ]

So many of the rules say basically the floorman will decide. I picked an example taht has been beat to death on this board. There are many rules like this that are confusing to a casual reader but quite clear when taken in context. Obviously what the players are supposed to do needs to be known to them (amounts allowed to bet etc). What the floor is going to rule when the cards go off the table etc is very situational.

I have only seen a player ask to see the rules in one situation: "I want to see the rules so I can look for a reason to kill the best hand so I can get a pot with the second best hand." I have worked in poker for many years and I have NEVER seen a player ask for a rule book under any other circumstance.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
SOME rules posted on the wall is not the same as a more detailed copy of the rules that is available to everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those rules should suffice. Especially regarding the IWTSTH rule. Again, way too much airtime for that rule. Better things to worry about.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
How am I supposed to know the rules if I can't see them.

There are probably several rules that I would have been likely to have broken when I was a newbie if it hadn't been up to me to just sit there and guess.

I see people breaking the string-bet rule all the freaking time just because they don't know what it is.
For quite awhile I would never never have even known what 'protect your cards' meant. I only started playing a couple years ago....and when I first started I would have just assumed that it ONLY meant that I should make sure that nobody is trying to peak over my shoulder and look at them.


Protect my action: Would have had zero idea what that meant.

Hell, I didn't even know you had to go to the desk to ask what games were open. I just assumed you could walk right in and sit down at any table (I did this once...seriously).

I have to wait for the dealer to push me the pot?
Am I allowed to get up to leave to go to the bathroom or will I lose my seat?
I'm not allowed to take my own chips off the table? What's up with that?

Seriously...there are a LOT of new players out there who don't even know the basics.

Why would we want to keep it all a mystery?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need a masters degree. All this stuff you learn within the first 10 minutes of play. If you don't know. Simply ask. If it was posted, no one would read it anyways. I don't see a big line looking at the rules as they post it on the walls now, they sure as hell aren't going to look at 4 pages worth. Actually, it's rare to see anyone whether new or not looking at the rules.

b

[MicroBob]

amusingly.....it took me a little while to figure out what you meant by IWTSTH rule. (finally figured it out).

[bernie]

Can you imagine how long it could take to get through a hand if some petty nit wanted to call every petty rule he can find during a hand?

I know a couple players like that. They just enjoy holding up a game like they were on stage or something.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I have only seen a player ask to see the rules in one situation: "I want to see the rules so I can look for a reason to kill the best hand so I can get a pot with the second best hand." I have worked in poker for many years and I have NEVER seen a player ask for a rule book under any other circumstance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got that right. You never see these guys argue the case for someone else.

We have the 'commitment line' where I play. I remember one hand a guy(A) called a guy(B) on the commitment line rule. This was on the turn, I think. The guyA would normally never call this. The other guyB made an honest mistake. He was also new to the room. GuyA was adamant on the guy's chips staying in. GuyB looks at me and I just kinda shrug knowing full well the only reason GuyA is doing it is because he has a great hand. I've seen him wave it off before. So when the action for the hand is at showdown, GuyB is still looking over to me a couple times and I mention the other buy obviously has a great hand. And told him the reason. It was kind of a nitty, tool move. Not really worth the extra bet, imo.

b

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I fully agree. Allowing the entire rules document to be read by the public would be nit heaven, and a very bad idea.

al