Confused in Scugog

[Catt]

Now that the discussion has died down and you've posted results, what the heck is "Scugog?"

[mc1023]

I really need to make a comment about these posts.

It seems like you are saying that there is no point in raising ATo here since the blinds and poster will call with literally any two cards. Also that if they hit the flops they are going to overplay their hands assuming you are weak.

Now even if I knew that the poster would call any two, including the blinds and I have 0% chance of getting a fold from any of the 3 players I would still raise. Why? Simply because if they are willing to call me with dominated and just plain donk hands I am very +ev.

Your trying to put your "mass psychology" into a simple 20-40 game where the players are awful and making mistakes with the illusion that there is more money to be won since there is a poster so they should call with any two cards.

and your final statement in the end, about "sometimes play the 2nd best hand like the 2nd best hand" just clarifies to me that you are weak in this kind of spot where you should clearly raise. Since before you see the action of the blinds and the poster you are already thinking that they will run you over.

If the other players see you limping with ATo or maybe even AJo in this spot and you go to showdown. One of those times you get AA or KK maybe they will not opt to call with there 27o since they know you will not steal attempt in this kind of situation.

To add to that your basically assuming before you even see the flop and get into the hand that they see you having a weak hand and will play aggressively towards you with marginal holdings.

I just can't possibly see the theory of how this would be a bad situation to be in.

Three awful players giving action with possibly just disgusting hands and on top of that they will be willing to overplay their cards.

Anyone else sense weakness?

[Diplomat]

An area North-East of Toronto, part of which is Reserve land, that has a casino. I was going for a weak Sleepless in Seattle reference. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-Diplomat

[Guruman]

just a thought from an outsider here:

I don't mind the idea of a late limp with ATo. A raise here wont scare anyone away, and our equity against four random sets of cards is much less than what people are giving it credit for. PS says something like 30%.

OP raised for value here because he knew the blinds hated him and would call. There are a couple of problems with this though:

1)ATo is a big pair hand. It wont win against this field unimproved, and it doesnt play well multiway. The preflop raise works against this hand's strength because it will only create a large pot with many players in a situation where it needs to improve one or both cards to win. This is true even in situations like this where our opponents could hold any two.

2)On top of hurting our ability to play the hand post-flop, it also gives away information about our hand. Hero's opponents know they arent going anywhere in this hand, and they have to figure that he knows this as well. If you made this move against me in this spot, I'd have to figure it was for value with anything better than KQs. I'd still call, but I'd play it like you had a pair or two big cards. A limp just tells me that you have two cards here.

3)top pair type hands often need protection post flop. A limp on a weakish Ace like this one with position puts only 4 SBs in the pot. Now when the flop comes with an Ace, you can raise a bet and force others to call two cold into a much smaller pot. With the preflop raise you have to make the same move, but is is much less effective.

re: the turn checkthrough:

the only way this move makes sense is if your read puts you in a WA/WB situation. The tightrope you walk is between pushing an edge you might not even have, and protecting a hand you may be ahead with. Looks pretty read dependant to me.

My .02 [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[hicherbie]

i think ely did a pretty good job explaining the late position pf section of HEFAP/"when the blinds are really loose". after reading these posts, i went back and reread that section (& AQo section as well). it has made me think a lot more about what my raises and bets really try to accomplish in certain spots. i hope these kinds of threads continue.

[Jdanz]

i like the thinking, but i think it's wrong here as 1 or 2 of the three blinds in this hand folding greatly increases A) chances of winning and B) dead money in the pot.

It's an interesting concept, but i think what you lose vs qj is much less then what you gain vs, either a calling or folding 96o.